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Original poster

Flexible working revoked - help!!

410 replies

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 05/08/2023 07:59

Looking for a sounding board for a problem I'm having at work. Not sure what to do really...

So, I had a baby and returned after a 9 month maternity leave, but when my son was 5 months old, I discussed my return to work with my boss (male).

(I work as a PA for two people who own and run the company)

I asked to return to work 5 days a week, but to work 2 days from home and also if I could leave at 4.30pm instead of my contracted finish of 5pm in order to pick up my son from nursery. I was told that none of this was a problem and that I didn't need to be in when my boss wasn't in (he also worked 3 days a week in the office).

So I returned to work with this set up and did absolutely everything to make this work, which included working through lunch breaks and responding to emails from 6am-10pm 7 days a week.

After 8 months of this being in place, I was told (in the middle of the office, not privately) that they were going to need to ask me to return to the office 4 days a week as they couldn't give me something they weren't giving to the rest of the staff. I was assured that this had nothing to do with my performance as they know I'm working all the time, but purely to do with what other people in the office are allowed.

I had many discussions with them about the impact of this on me, and that it would cost me almost an extra £400 in childcare costs per month, to which I was told effectively that if I can't afford to have kids, I shouldn't have them.

At this point, two other women were having their working from home revoked, but they had had it for 11 and 14 years, and their children were in secondary school by this point.

In the discussions for this, my boss (female) had suggested to me that on the extra day I was being asked to work in the office, I could leave early. This was purely her idea and was even suggesting around lunchtime.

After all my protests, I was told they would get back to me...however 5 months later nobody had. As this was being requested to start in September, I approached my boss (female) last week to discuss it before my holiday, and her holiday. She seemed surprised, but thankful that I had put the wheels in motion and was making this happening and agreed that it had kind of been forgotten about (not by me, I can assure you!). When I then raised her idea of leaving early on the extra day in the office, she didn't seem to recall this conversation and actually seemed quite annoyed by it, asking "how early?". I suggested 3.30pm instead of 4.30pm, and as I could see that this request wasn't going down well, I suggested it be for the first 3 weeks to help my son settle in (as this also coincides with him moving to preschool).

She then said that we need to review my leaving at 4.30pm on other days, and would I be willing to leave at 5pm (my contracted time) instead. I said that it wasn't a case of being willing, but that if I left at that time, I wouldn't be able to make it to the nursery before they shut. She seemed in disbelief that it would take me that long to get home, but I pointed out that whilst Google might suggest it is an hour, that is if I hit all my connections and there is no traffic. In practice, this is never the case, and it it always takes me around 1 hour 20 mins.

Her reasoning for asking me to leave at 5pm was again, for parity across the office, but also in case her or my other boss need something urgent between 4.30-5pm. Whilst I understand this, in practice I don't think this is actually the case, as all day I am asked for very little and I am the proactive one asking if they need things all the time. I can't believe that something urgent would be regularly happening in the last 30 mins of the day.

She also said that if they finish a meeting after 4.30pm and I am gone, they might need something, and it's not fair on other members of staff as it puts more pressure on them. Whilst this is true, I have been back through the diaries and in the 201 days I have worked back in the office, they have had meetings that have gone beyond 4.30pm 18 times. Also, they have never had someone come to the office for a meeting that starts after 4.30pm.

Therefore I feel that this isn't a reflection of what actually happens. I can't believe that they ask for very little all day, but in that last 30 mins something urgent comes up. She also acknowledged that I am on email my whole journey home, but it's if something happens that I am needed in person. She accepted the fact I work through my lunch, and from early morning until late evening on emails, but that it was not about total hours worked.

For context, my company are very anti flexible working. I joined 3 days before lockdown in 2020, and went on maternity leave in July 2021, so had spent a massive amount of my employment working from home. They are on a drive to get people back to the office and don't want anyone working from home. They recently conducted a staff survey, and in that almost every member of the office requested more flexibility with working from home. Therefore they are begrudgingly reviewing it, but it seems they are missing the point that flexible working doesn't have to be the exact same conditions for everyone and that it is a case by case scenario.

I am unsure as to whether I am being unreasonable, or if not, how hard to push on this - especially given that I was told by my boss (male) that he asked if he could get rid of me when I told him I was pregnant!!

We are a small team and don't have an official HR department. We recently just got a freelance HR person in, but I'm unsure as to how much I trust them yet. Also, in my capacity as a PA I work very closely with my bosses and maintaining a good relationship is important. I'm not trying to rock the boat or get special privileges, but it's hard to make things work when the agreement keeps changing. I returned to work based on certain conditions and I set my life up around them.

Any advice would be so gratefully received as it is keeping me up at night!

Thank you!

OP posts:
IbizaToTheNorfolkBroads · 08/08/2023 19:10

Yalta · 08/08/2023 19:04

vickylou78 friend atm charges £12 per hour for wrap around care forbidden school age children only.

Just for pick ups that is £60 per week just for an hour wrap around care in the evening and then there is the extra 2 mornings, probably another 1-5 hours each day so another 3 hours or £36 per week there

Even if we just go by a 4 week month then there is pretty much the £400 per month.

We are in the southeast and an expensive commuter town and that is the cost around here.

Another friend who was in quite a good City salary worked out she spent the equivalent of her entire monthly salary less £45 on childcare when she had her 2nd.

That is an age old story.
It "cost" our household income £17 a month when I returned to work and we had 2 in nursery 3 days a week. I had a car, a pension, training, NI and professional memberships paid though. You need to think of childcare as a long term investment in your career.

Yalta · 08/08/2023 19:09

No one is going to look after a child for £5 per hour and provide a car to do pick ups and then provide breakfast and tea and be limited to just 4-6 children
It wouldn’t be cost effective.

Yalta · 08/08/2023 19:04

vickylou78 friend atm charges £12 per hour for wrap around care forbidden school age children only.

Just for pick ups that is £60 per week just for an hour wrap around care in the evening and then there is the extra 2 mornings, probably another 1-5 hours each day so another 3 hours or £36 per week there

Even if we just go by a 4 week month then there is pretty much the £400 per month.

We are in the southeast and an expensive commuter town and that is the cost around here.

Another friend who was in quite a good City salary worked out she spent the equivalent of her entire monthly salary less £45 on childcare when she had her 2nd.

vickylou78 · 08/08/2023 10:16

Yalta · 07/08/2023 21:53

I actually think the £400 per month extra could end up being more.

In week it isn’t just 2 extra days childcare

It is also 5 extra hours (at least) in the evenings to pay a childminder to collect her child from nursery

It is probably 2 extra early morning drop offs to the childminder for her dc to be taken to nursery

It is 2 extra days of station parking

2 more train tickets

There could well be extra petrol involved just to do the drop offs and pick ups if the child minder lives further away from the nursery.

I actually think she is underestimating how much more money this will cost

But the Op said the £400 was just childcare costs

Yalta · 07/08/2023 21:53

I actually think the £400 per month extra could end up being more.

In week it isn’t just 2 extra days childcare

It is also 5 extra hours (at least) in the evenings to pay a childminder to collect her child from nursery

It is probably 2 extra early morning drop offs to the childminder for her dc to be taken to nursery

It is 2 extra days of station parking

2 more train tickets

There could well be extra petrol involved just to do the drop offs and pick ups if the child minder lives further away from the nursery.

I actually think she is underestimating how much more money this will cost

HauntedPencil · 07/08/2023 14:16

Yes it's perfectly possible due to the commuting she might have to pay extra for mornings/late nights or informally able to work evenings or late hours eg she's referenced answering emails and being available at 11pm.

We all get our kids from school at my place and it's not frowned upon at all.

sunglassesonthetable · 07/08/2023 11:19

It's a fairly big part of the puzzle though, especially when employers are cottoning onto the fact that some employees are using WFH to save on childcare. It's not unreasonable for people to ask about the obvious.

Of course.

But not rewrite the events.

The manager isn't wrong to say that an employee's childcare costs aren't their problem. If someone's contract has them based at a place of work, they need appropriate childcare for their contract. That means if an informal arrangement no longer works then "but I'll have to pay £400 in childcare" isn't a reasonable thing to throw back at the manager.

I agree. But changing hours and arrangements is not always a reasonable thing either. There is more to it than "they just want to" as posters have been saying all along.

I suspect when this HR person gets on board it'll be more than just telling OP across the office " we're changing your WFH" . I'm not even sure parity counts as a reason. But don't quote me.

LolaSmiles · 07/08/2023 11:01

sunglassesonthetable
It's a fairly big part of the puzzle though, especially when employers are cottoning onto the fact that some employees are using WFH to save on childcare. It's not unreasonable for people to ask about the obvious.

The manager isn't wrong to say that an employee's childcare costs aren't their problem. If someone's contract has them based at a place of work, they need appropriate childcare for their contract. That means if an informal arrangement no longer works then "but I'll have to pay £400 in childcare" isn't a reasonable thing to throw back at the manager.

Not sure where you got the " lots of adjustments to her house " though?
That's an autocorrect error. It should have been adjustments to her hours.

sunglassesonthetable · 07/08/2023 10:55

They're a business, not a babysitting service.

Oh do one.

sunglassesonthetable · 07/08/2023 10:53

You may be championing the OP and any number of possible £400 childcare scenarios, but realistically, it’s not very helpful to her.

No I'm pointing out there isn't only one possible scenario here.

Despite entrenched posters who know better about OPs life than she does. Don't think that's particularly 'helpful' either.

I gave my actual advice pages ago thanks.

onefinemess · 07/08/2023 10:51

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 05/08/2023 07:59

Looking for a sounding board for a problem I'm having at work. Not sure what to do really...

So, I had a baby and returned after a 9 month maternity leave, but when my son was 5 months old, I discussed my return to work with my boss (male).

(I work as a PA for two people who own and run the company)

I asked to return to work 5 days a week, but to work 2 days from home and also if I could leave at 4.30pm instead of my contracted finish of 5pm in order to pick up my son from nursery. I was told that none of this was a problem and that I didn't need to be in when my boss wasn't in (he also worked 3 days a week in the office).

So I returned to work with this set up and did absolutely everything to make this work, which included working through lunch breaks and responding to emails from 6am-10pm 7 days a week.

After 8 months of this being in place, I was told (in the middle of the office, not privately) that they were going to need to ask me to return to the office 4 days a week as they couldn't give me something they weren't giving to the rest of the staff. I was assured that this had nothing to do with my performance as they know I'm working all the time, but purely to do with what other people in the office are allowed.

I had many discussions with them about the impact of this on me, and that it would cost me almost an extra £400 in childcare costs per month, to which I was told effectively that if I can't afford to have kids, I shouldn't have them.

At this point, two other women were having their working from home revoked, but they had had it for 11 and 14 years, and their children were in secondary school by this point.

In the discussions for this, my boss (female) had suggested to me that on the extra day I was being asked to work in the office, I could leave early. This was purely her idea and was even suggesting around lunchtime.

After all my protests, I was told they would get back to me...however 5 months later nobody had. As this was being requested to start in September, I approached my boss (female) last week to discuss it before my holiday, and her holiday. She seemed surprised, but thankful that I had put the wheels in motion and was making this happening and agreed that it had kind of been forgotten about (not by me, I can assure you!). When I then raised her idea of leaving early on the extra day in the office, she didn't seem to recall this conversation and actually seemed quite annoyed by it, asking "how early?". I suggested 3.30pm instead of 4.30pm, and as I could see that this request wasn't going down well, I suggested it be for the first 3 weeks to help my son settle in (as this also coincides with him moving to preschool).

She then said that we need to review my leaving at 4.30pm on other days, and would I be willing to leave at 5pm (my contracted time) instead. I said that it wasn't a case of being willing, but that if I left at that time, I wouldn't be able to make it to the nursery before they shut. She seemed in disbelief that it would take me that long to get home, but I pointed out that whilst Google might suggest it is an hour, that is if I hit all my connections and there is no traffic. In practice, this is never the case, and it it always takes me around 1 hour 20 mins.

Her reasoning for asking me to leave at 5pm was again, for parity across the office, but also in case her or my other boss need something urgent between 4.30-5pm. Whilst I understand this, in practice I don't think this is actually the case, as all day I am asked for very little and I am the proactive one asking if they need things all the time. I can't believe that something urgent would be regularly happening in the last 30 mins of the day.

She also said that if they finish a meeting after 4.30pm and I am gone, they might need something, and it's not fair on other members of staff as it puts more pressure on them. Whilst this is true, I have been back through the diaries and in the 201 days I have worked back in the office, they have had meetings that have gone beyond 4.30pm 18 times. Also, they have never had someone come to the office for a meeting that starts after 4.30pm.

Therefore I feel that this isn't a reflection of what actually happens. I can't believe that they ask for very little all day, but in that last 30 mins something urgent comes up. She also acknowledged that I am on email my whole journey home, but it's if something happens that I am needed in person. She accepted the fact I work through my lunch, and from early morning until late evening on emails, but that it was not about total hours worked.

For context, my company are very anti flexible working. I joined 3 days before lockdown in 2020, and went on maternity leave in July 2021, so had spent a massive amount of my employment working from home. They are on a drive to get people back to the office and don't want anyone working from home. They recently conducted a staff survey, and in that almost every member of the office requested more flexibility with working from home. Therefore they are begrudgingly reviewing it, but it seems they are missing the point that flexible working doesn't have to be the exact same conditions for everyone and that it is a case by case scenario.

I am unsure as to whether I am being unreasonable, or if not, how hard to push on this - especially given that I was told by my boss (male) that he asked if he could get rid of me when I told him I was pregnant!!

We are a small team and don't have an official HR department. We recently just got a freelance HR person in, but I'm unsure as to how much I trust them yet. Also, in my capacity as a PA I work very closely with my bosses and maintaining a good relationship is important. I'm not trying to rock the boat or get special privileges, but it's hard to make things work when the agreement keeps changing. I returned to work based on certain conditions and I set my life up around them.

Any advice would be so gratefully received as it is keeping me up at night!

Thank you!

They're a business, not a babysitting service.

If your personal commitments don't align with the company schedule then you need to find another job which suits you better.

Newtt · 07/08/2023 10:47

sunglassesonthetable · 07/08/2023 10:02

*sunglassesonthetable where do you think the £400 childcare cost is coming from?
*
Okay, a scenario could be:

Her parents have her child as long as she can pick up by 5.30. If she's back in the office the child has to go into paid child care.

Why is everyone being so bloody minded about this?

You may be championing the OP and any number of possible £400 childcare scenarios, but realistically, it’s not very helpful to her.

I hope the OP has listened to the pragmatic advice given - even if she doesn’t like it or feels it doesn’t apply to her.

She needs to put in a written request for flexible working.
HR will presumably be involved formally.
She will need to be prepared to justify her request and to also be able to provide evidence of childcare arrangements during her working hours. If formal childcare is already in place- great! One less obstacle towards flexible working.

However, as may PPs have pointed out, there are many different firms with different attitudes to how this type of role fits in to their organisation.

it seems that the organisation the OP works for isn’t as suited to remote and flexible hours.

OP finding a more suitable role that suits both her and her employer would probably save grief all round. (But may still have to be prepared to evidence childcare for actual / core working hours).

Ultimately, the person(s) OP is PA for have to feel it works for them - otherwise she will be continually on the wait for redundancy/ change of hours / change of role etc.

sunglassesonthetable · 07/08/2023 10:23

You're right that the situation you outlined is another situation. The OP's very cagey, it's personal, not relevant etc responses do come across as defensive.

I don't blame the OP for being defensive after judge and jury on here had decided that categorically YES she was combining WFH with childcare.

Not sure where you got the " lots of adjustments to her house " though?

A Formal Working request is good advice for OP but the fact she hadn't done it is not further evidence that she was working the system with childcare.

LolaSmiles · 07/08/2023 10:08

I think people have picked up on the £400 thing because it's more likely that someone who hasn't made a formal flexible working request, and wants to have a lot of adjustments to their house, is annoyed that going into their workplace will cost them £400 in childcare and has given that as a reason to their manager when expressing their irritation at having to go into work is more likely to be using WFH as childcare than not.

You're right that the situation you outlined is another situation. The OP's very cagey, it's personal, not relevant etc responses do come across as defensive.

WFH and flexible working is great when it's arranged properly and people have appropriate childcare arrangements.

OP either needs to formalise her arrangements, look for another job, or both.

stevalnamechanger · 07/08/2023 10:04

You need to make a formal flexible working request .

Also speak to ACAS , and start looking for a new job

sunglassesonthetable · 07/08/2023 10:02

*sunglassesonthetable where do you think the £400 childcare cost is coming from?
*
Okay, a scenario could be:

Her parents have her child as long as she can pick up by 5.30. If she's back in the office the child has to go into paid child care.

Why is everyone being so bloody minded about this?

sunglassesonthetable · 07/08/2023 09:58

It’s quite obvious to the vast majority of the thread that the OP backtracked when called out on her childcare set up.

I think it's like a snowball that's gained weight until it was actually been my touted as the reason her work was revoking hours.

I've already given a scenario where it could cost £400 more. I'm pretty sure there are loads more.

I think her work sound very very disorganised. The right hand doesn't know what the left is doing. There are no formal agreements or contracted agreements. They've only just got an HR specialist, was it part time or freelance?
They don't really know what they're doing.

I reckon someone else said I want to WFH, she does and they're in a fluster.

Sugarfree23 · 07/08/2023 09:50

sunglassesonthetable · 06/08/2023 15:54

But crack on @Hufflepods. It makes for a funny read. Keep telling OP what her situation is.

@sunglassesonthetable where do you think the £400 childcare cost is coming from?

The £400 childcare cost isn't her works problem. They are paying her to do a job she needs to be available to do it.

If she was doing a grand job and there were no issues with her work output her employer wouldn't be bothered where she works. But it's clear they think they are being short changed.

Hufflepods · 07/08/2023 09:35

sunglassesonthetable · 06/08/2023 15:54

But crack on @Hufflepods. It makes for a funny read. Keep telling OP what her situation is.

It’s quite obvious to the vast majority of the thread that the OP backtracked when called out on her childcare set up.

StillWantingADog · 06/08/2023 22:24

I’d just look for another job tbh.
employers vary enormously in their flexible working approach

mine are great, we are mostly expected in 1 day a week minimum, though some people are exclusively wfh. Hours are nominally 9-5.30 but as long as you turn up to scheduled meetings and put in 37.5 hours a week nobody really cares what yours actual hours are.

my husband’s employer are great too, they don’t even have a UK office (American company) so everyone in the UK wfh full time

thereisnorightanswer · 06/08/2023 22:15

OP, you don't want to tell us why you would have to pay out an extra £400.

Did you tell your employer? Otherwise, they too will be assuming you've been "working" from home whilst looking after your child.

In any case, none of this matters - you didn't put in a formal request and they've made clear that if you do, they will formally reject it on the grounds that your flexible working doesn't meet the needs of the business.

You say you don't want to change jobs, but... I don't see what other option you have. You can work the hours that are contracted as part of your job and that are needed as part of your job, or you can leave and work somewhere else.

sunglassesonthetable · 06/08/2023 15:54

But crack on @Hufflepods. It makes for a funny read. Keep telling OP what her situation is.

sunglassesonthetable · 06/08/2023 15:52

If going into the office one extra day a week costs her £400 a month specifically in childcare costs, as explicitly said by the OP, it’s pretty obvious the child is not in childcare while the OP is working. Not a massive deduction at all.

Well OP said that isn't happening - and so it IS a massive assumption.

It wouldn't be too hard to think of a scenario. Here's one. Her parents has the child as long as she can get home and pick up by a certain time. If not and she's later child has to go to paid Nursery Care.

Nope you're TELLING OP what her situation is ( from literally a sentence) and you're pissy you're not correct.

Howyiz · 06/08/2023 14:51

Have you explained to your boss that the flexible arrangement worked both ways and that you have continuously worked outside of your contacted hours to suit the business.
Going forward if there is a strict adherence to contracted hours then that will be the case for both the company and you. I.e no out of hours being done by you.
And for the love of God stick to that. Do not under any circumstances work outside your contracted hours. This may help them focus their minds and make them realise what a good deal they are currently getting.

Hufflepods · 06/08/2023 14:33

@sunglassesonthetable *Posters authoritatively answering " oh she's looking after her child whilst working"

NO she NEVER said that.
Just a massive MN deduction.*

If going into the office one extra day a week costs her £400 a month specifically in childcare costs, as explicitly said by the OP, it’s pretty obvious the child is not in childcare while the OP is working. Not a massive deduction at all.