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Original poster

Can I change this dynamic with friend?

29 replies

Pizzaexpressshame · 02/08/2023 19:19

I have had this friend for about 15 years, always got on great. Never argued. There has always been respect towards each others views and lifestyles.

Somehow this has changed and we have somehow fallen into the dynamic that she thinks I need to be helped and fixed and I'm getting increasingly frustrated with all the crazy advice I do not want or need.

She advised me three times to get a husband as 'perhaps I could finally be happy' or as replacement for the difficult relationship with my parents. I found this very, very offensive and actually wondered what I might have said that led her to jump to such conclusions. I did confront her the third time and said I found it far fetched and hurtful. She completely checked out and did not acknowledge her 'mistake'.

Now, I feel like in every conversation I am in some sort of consultation with her where whatever I say she has a suggestion handy for. I told her I don't like it. I just want to tell her something completely trivial without receiving advice. I asked her whether she has thought about why she feels the need to constantly give advice, but now I am the problem as I apparently find fault with everything she says, take things negatively, that she is just the way she is and shes not going to waste any thoughts on such a question.

She is Muslim and said that she'd be very happy if I became one too. I asked why and she replied that because it would mean I wouldn't go to hell. I wish I was joking.

Another thing I struggle to move past is that she convinced her sister and mother (my friend is white and converted to Islam years ago. The family is not Muslim) to not wear shorts and sleeveless shirts whilst on a walk with her because it made her uncomfortable. I also was once out and about with my friend and there was a good looking lady with her young child...the woman wore leather shorts and a tank top. She looked amazing. My friend turned around to me and said 'isnt it terrible to walk around like this as a mother'? I told her each to their own but she couldn't see it like that at all! I could equally be embarrassed to walk around with a women in a long, wide gown and a headscarf, which would never have occured to me, but apparently that's something completely else? It isn't of course.

I have sat down to think how it all came to this and I think she has become quite extreme and inflexible in her views. It's as though she can no longer accept that others view things differently.

The 'fixing of others' has become a feature in the rest of her life, too. It's always about helping this or that person and she obviously feels absolutely great when she tells me about it. On the one hand I'm getting concerned about her as she does not seem well to me mentally and definitely isn't well physically (she's getting pains etc she herself puts down to stress), whilst on the other I no longer feel I can talk to her about my concerns.

I feel like a can't engage with her atm, but I want to keep the friendship too 😞

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InSpainTheRain · 02/08/2023 22:31

From your OP I think she has become more devout and fervent in her views. I'm sorry but i dont think yiu will be able to get her to relax on this, let alone change her viewpoint. I'd reassess the friendship.

UnicornStarfish · 02/08/2023 22:26

OP I hope you can sort it out, one way or another. I understand you leaving the door open. Time will tell.
If her problem is MH though all bets are off then. Our mind can make hell out of heaven and heaven out of hell.
Just read she might a DV victim, how did I miss that!? Well, by all means live the door and a window open.

Original poster
Pizzaexpressshame · 02/08/2023 22:12

@UnicornStarfish I hear what you are saying, but religion has been in her life for much longer than the past couple of years. I think she might interpret Islam in a way my other Muslim friends don't and I think she's desperately holding onto however her beliefs have changed for whatever reason as some kind of protective mechanism. Equally, I do think mental health issues come into this too and it's hard to separate what behaviour is down to her beliefs and what is down to her needing help from a professional. People with mental illness can also become quite rigid for various reasons.

You are right that I resent how she has treated me, which is why I will stop trying to manage the friendship and look after my own needs, but I won't end the friendship now. The door is open and this doesn't mean it's open to continue how things have been the past couple of years.

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UnicornStarfish · 02/08/2023 21:52

OP this isn't a hurdle. You're resentful and it shows. This wasn't a one-off. This is a sustained situation over time. You've had a conversation and it got you nowhere. If you want to keep at it go for it.
I didn't mean to offend you when I said "you're not that special", let me rephrase that. I've never met anyone very strict with their religion willing to change their views for anyone else, me included. We are nobody to go against what a person thinks is right given her God is telling her what is right and we are nobody against her God. The way you live your life is, in her mind (I don't even know you so what the heck do I know), wrong in the eyes of her God. Unless you change you will always be wrong and if you're wrong it's her moral job to make you right.
Your friendship stopped being a normal one, the moment God came into the picture IMHO. You are nothing, I am nothing, we are nothing against God.

Original poster
Pizzaexpressshame · 02/08/2023 21:40

@UnicornStarfish I would say a real friend would try to work through this. She isn't willing or able to do that right now. She's unwell in my eyes, which may contribute to this. I'm glad I don't have shitty friends like you that move on after the first hurdle in 15 years when I'm in a bad place.

I will not be the martyr in this, but I will leave the door open for now.

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Original poster
Pizzaexpressshame · 02/08/2023 21:34

@tt9 your comments are absolutely invaluable. I never researched Islam and am angry that my friends comments skewed my view of it. I will definitely bring up some of what you said and just 'blame' it on conversations I had with other Muslim friends.

The thing is...she isn't new to this. She has been with this ass of a husband for over 25 years and converted no less than 10 years ago. I would say that up until about two years ago she was tolerant of others and respectful of differences. Maybe, the more she suffered at home and with herself the more she started to read into what Islam teaches out of desperation. I don't know.

I'm just a bit sick that she's effectively using me and my apparent shortcomings to feel better about herself.

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UnicornStarfish · 02/08/2023 21:30

I was going to say yes but then you added religion to the mix and now I say: move on!
She is who she is, either you can take it as it is or you can't. She's not going to change for you, sorry but you're not that special. Take her or leave her.
You're here because you can't "take" her as she is so, again, move on. Life's too short for a relationship like this.
A real friend is one who can tell to fuck off without anyone being offended and still be friends.

Original poster
Pizzaexpressshame · 02/08/2023 21:00

@Indigotree she doesn't want help, no. I believe she thinks she can fix it all with her faith. And by fixing it I mean bending over backwards enough to somehow exist in this situation.

She had a rough time three years ago (about three months) and is praising herself for making it through it without a therapist (unlike her weak sister).

She comes across as completely awful and it just highlights to me how bad it has become.

Think I might go into self preservation and if she comes out the other hand or needs anything in between I'll be there.

I actually suspect she'll try to leave him again soon.

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tt9 · 02/08/2023 20:56

@Pizzaexpressshame definitely should seek therapy. nothing that prevents therapy in Islam. in fact it is compulsory for Muslims to seek available treatment if they are unwell.

of course therapy can be supplemented by islamic meditation and prayer

for context I have long standing serious health issues and have been in therapy for years to help with PTSD from awful interventions and episodes critical illness. but equally I could not have coped without my daily meditation, praying, reading the Qur'an and keeping things in perspective according to my faith. they both can be helpful and have their place

but people that need therapy have to accept they need it and be willing to co operate otherwise its useless

Indigotree · 02/08/2023 20:55

Pizzaexpressshame · 02/08/2023 20:48

Does anyone know how Islam stands towards mental health issues and seeing therapists etc?

Her sister has massive problems and my friend has expressed some views which are also concerning. Along the lines of 'if she did X she wouldn't be depressed'.

I think my friend needs to see someone. I did actually suggest it to her. Unfortunately I think unless she has a breakdown and stops functioning and then sees someone she'll just continue to suffer in this abusive marriage.

Perhaps a therapist who is also a Muslim and has experience working with domestic abuse? Your friend would need to want therapy, though, so it might be difficult to find her help. I hope she can find something.

Indigotree · 02/08/2023 20:52

Have you seen the Karpman triangle? It's the relationship dynamics theory where people play (unconsciously) roles of Rescuer, Victim and Perpetrator. Each person can switch roles lots within a conversation or relationship.

If you Google it mostly it's presented as being started by a 'victim' moaning about a problem but not really wanting help; the other person then tries to 'rescue' them with advice or help, then gets frustrated and 'persecutor'y when the 'victim' doesn't take it.

However...I find it's far, far more common for these 'rescuer' types (which your friend sounds like) to insist on finding negatives, to exaggerate any trivial problems we tell them in passing, or to offer useless solutions to real problems, then get worse when we try to ask them nicely to desist.

You can't even try mentioning nice, positive things like your washing machine because the Rescuer is so desperate to find problems that they twist it to fit their narrative about you.

They're awful people to have around if you really do have serious life problems (I discovered them after bereavements), because they feed on you like vultures and it's difficult to see what's happening as they are well-intentioned (at least consciously: their unconscious motives are about feeling better about themselves).

Original poster
Pizzaexpressshame · 02/08/2023 20:48

Does anyone know how Islam stands towards mental health issues and seeing therapists etc?

Her sister has massive problems and my friend has expressed some views which are also concerning. Along the lines of 'if she did X she wouldn't be depressed'.

I think my friend needs to see someone. I did actually suggest it to her. Unfortunately I think unless she has a breakdown and stops functioning and then sees someone she'll just continue to suffer in this abusive marriage.

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tt9 · 02/08/2023 20:45

@Pizzaexpressshame oh dear. Muslim here ... and let me see if I can give you some one liners that will help break the dynamic. beat her at her own game.

  1. if she tells you that you should 'convert' - you can say that God says in the Qur'an that there is no compulsion in religion. every human has a choice. and just because someone is Muslim, that is no guarantee of anything
  1. if she makes comments on what other women are wearing - just remind her Muslims are supposed to be non judgemental and back biting (like that comment she made about that lady) is forbidden.
  1. when she tells you to get married - remind her that she believes God has already destined your spouse and you will marry when you are meant to. and not everyone gets married, it is not compulsory.
  1. remind her that her husband is 100% responsible for every single expense in her household + all her expenses. any money she earns, she inherits etc. are hers. so before she lectures you about marriage, she needs to establish her own rights within her existing marriage.

I love my faith, and I love sharing it with others and talking about it but lecturing and this attitude of being better than others is unfortunate to say the least.

often converts don't receive the support they need. they might have to deal with a new culture as well as a new religion and in this case the husband sounds... not ideal. so she is probably going through a really difficult time and preaching to you is her trying to convince herself that she made the right choice. she needs therapy and speak to other Muslims to build confidence in her new faith. also it is possible she has chosen salafism... which is an erm. . problematic offshoot of Islam...

maybe you are all the support she has? so despite all the above, might be worth sticking around...

Allwelcone · 02/08/2023 20:40

I'd keep the door open but it's hard as you will miss the friendship as it was of course

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 02/08/2023 20:39

Pizzaexpressshame · 02/08/2023 20:20

@xPeaceXx yes I will try it. I already know her response though.

I think I might start to grey rock her when she starts playing therapist. I might all of a sudden have to go to do something else or buy something.

I recently bought a new washing machine and told her how much I loved that thing and she said: I think you would need a large family to really enjoy it.

Such comment wouldn't bother me out of context but it did because nothing is ever okay and she can't just be happy with me about some silly washing machine and the joys middle age brings.

Omg she sounds insufferable.

I think this is total projection though- she's not happy deep down with her lot but she can't admit it as she's so committed to her faith and the family life is what religion encourages and promises is key to fulfillment

OrderOfTheKookaburra · 02/08/2023 20:35

For a messed up person your friend has a lot of advice! But then again, fixing other people's lives means you can ignore your own problems and pretend everything is ok.

Original poster
Pizzaexpressshame · 02/08/2023 20:35

@Allwelcone yes, I need a bit of a break. I feel quite wound up.

I guess I thought I could work to save the friendship. It's hard to sit with the not knowing and wanting it to improve again, but I can see how I am just trying to control it again and I need to stop this and focus on myself.

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Original poster
Pizzaexpressshame · 02/08/2023 20:23

Writing about it actually helps. Things become a bit clearer. The only thing she's got and might see value in is family and she's trying to convince herself that it's a good family. It isn't. I wish she could leave him and be herself.

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Allwelcone · 02/08/2023 20:22

So she's changed, that happens sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse.
A loyal long friendship can weether the ups and downs, I'd make sure you have some down tome from her for a few months. She's changed and so will your friendship.

Original poster
Pizzaexpressshame · 02/08/2023 20:20

@xPeaceXx yes I will try it. I already know her response though.

I think I might start to grey rock her when she starts playing therapist. I might all of a sudden have to go to do something else or buy something.

I recently bought a new washing machine and told her how much I loved that thing and she said: I think you would need a large family to really enjoy it.

Such comment wouldn't bother me out of context but it did because nothing is ever okay and she can't just be happy with me about some silly washing machine and the joys middle age brings.

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xPeaceXx · 02/08/2023 20:12

I'd say she envies you your financial freedom and is engaging in some olympic standard mental gymnastics to convince herself that you have the problem of not being married.

Can you make it clear how much you value your freedom? And financial independence. Say "I know I'm lucky" when talking about plans/finance

Think I'm going to take my own advice here!

Original poster
Pizzaexpressshame · 02/08/2023 20:06

@xPeaceXx your words about rebranding resonate with me. I have in fact thought about changing what I tell her or don't to get her to see me differently. Thank god you said it because I now see how fucked up this would be and I can't control what she thinks anyway.

Looks like I will remain the unfortunate friend.

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Original poster
Pizzaexpressshame · 02/08/2023 20:03

@StripeyDeckchair it might be linked, but it's not something I can look past. Islam isn't superior to any other belief, religious or not, except in her eyes it is. I have other Muslim friends and they aren't like that at all. I have not once felt they try to limit me or others or tried to convince me of what they believe in.

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Original poster
Pizzaexpressshame · 02/08/2023 20:00

@xPeaceXx I don't think she's parotting what her husband says but then I don't know as I don't actually know him. I know it's also very telling after a 15 year friendship.

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Original poster
Pizzaexpressshame · 02/08/2023 19:59

@xPeaceXx I will look this up, thanks.

Yes, it's precisely how I feel..she sees me as lesser and as though my life is lacking. It really isn't lacking more than hers. She's in an abusive marriage (emotionally and financially), he doesn't want her to work full-time, because as a mother she should look after the family, but is supposed to pay for everything other than rent (he pays) from her part time salary. The result is that she is always skinned. She lies to him where she goes sometimes and has tried to leave him many, many times.

I don't have a husband, but I have good money that I can buy and do what I want, always lots left at the end of the month. I can do whatever whenever I like and feel safe in my home. I have friends and hobbies. I don't think she has as hobby other than cooking for the family. I don't tell her that, but I am getting to that point as I am so fed up.

It just occurs to me that I am making the mistake of trying to get her to see my view and accept me. I won't be able to do that.

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