Would you be upset - it's a work one

Ceci03 · 2023-08-02T14:47:23+00:00

I have 2 managers and 3 team mates. While I was away on leave last week, an invitation was sent to me and the 3 others inviting us to 'refresher training' yesterday. I only realised when I got into the office that 3 individual meeting requests had been sent. So it was just the 2 managers, me and a p/t member of staff who it was explained was there as she was an 'expert'. (She has worked here longer than the other team members). So anyway when I went into the meeting room (p/t member told me I would need my laptop) - it turned out to be a test. I was a bit shocked and tbh got very nervous. The p/t member of staff gave me a task, and I had to complete it in front of them with them all looking over my shoulder. I got caught out a couple of times - she had put things in to 'catch me out', although if I had had a few mins I would have 'got it'. They then proceeded to say that it had been brought to their attention that a lot of mistakes were being made but they didnt know by who, so that's why I had to do the test. They kept asking me 'who is making mistakes' and I just said I hadn't noticed anything specific, and was certainly not going to name names, and that I looked on it as 3 of us were new since Jan and were on a steep learning curve, and we learned from our mistakes. It was extremely uncomfortable. At the time I was a bit shell shocked and just went along with it. The next team member to go in - I gave him a heads up and said it wasnt a training session but a test. He spoke to me afterwards. He also was upset and said it felt extremely demeaning. Which I agree with. The third person due to sit this test was on a/l. She was back today and we warned her - gave her a chance to 'swot'. I think it was very sneaky and not nice - am I right to be upset about it.

OverCCCs · 10/08/2023 03:52

SapphireEyes88 · 08/08/2023 21:03

I would immediately raise a grievance with whoever is above the managers. I would state that there was an issue with "training" actually being a demeaning test and that the managers then tried to gaslight you rather than address the issue. It's bullying in the workplace, pure and simple. It has highlighted that whilst members of your team weren't given appropriate training, it appears the managers could also do with a refresher course.
I have form for not being able to keep quiet about stuff like this though! It has led to me leaving jobs because they were unable to follow due process and instead create witch hunts. I can't let stuff like that slide tbh

That is absolutely not what genuine bullying in the workplace is. OP feels one way about the test/training and her management feels another way. Sometimes what feels “unfair” to us isn’t truly wrong and management isn’t necessarily acting incorrectly or inappropriately.

If you’ve left multiple jobs because of disputes over correct interpretations of processes, you might do well to reflect on whether your managers are really always at fault or if the recurring issue may lie with a personal shortcoming you can work to address.

1993GoToo · 10/08/2023 03:18

I don't think you sound a nut case at all.

You sound frustrated and annoyed at their lack of real training in the job, and then them trying to find out who is making mistakes in a bit of a weird way.

But you are allowed to have your say! However, your card will probably be marked now and unless the other 2 colleagues say the same to the managers, you will be a sitting duck. Been there myself, it's not a nice place to be.

Original poster

Ceci03 · 10/08/2023 01:26

@Illegallyblonder thanks for that

OP posts:

Illegallyblonder · 10/08/2023 01:24

@Ceci03 thanks for the update
They’re not going to listen
get out of there

ignore the posters who say it’s reasonable- it really isn’t

Yujismum · 09/08/2023 10:30

JenWillsiam

Exactly! You don’t agree with that ‘assessment’, and it is only your assessment. None of us were there except OP. From her description of events I would say the managers did not behave professionally. Not that doing a test is wrong or a bad thing but the way in which they carried it out appears to be anything but professional.
I’m reminded of yet another saying….something along the lines of being promoted to (their) level of incompetence.
FYI I held a managers post co-ordinating a team of highly qualified professionals for some years.

JenWillsiam · 09/08/2023 08:19

Outerlimit · 08/08/2023 23:03

@Ceci03 doesn't have to put up with game-playing and delusional management either.

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I don’t agree with that assessment.

Outerlimit · 08/08/2023 23:03

JenWillsiam · 08/08/2023 21:02

Because you’ve been there less than 2 years and they don’t have to put up with this stuff.

Show quote history

@Ceci03 doesn't have to put up with game-playing and delusional management either.

Original poster

Ceci03 · 08/08/2023 22:26

@SapphireEyes88 I would love
To be your colleague on how I wish you were.
I've never worked with someone who feels
As
Strongly as I do about this stuff !

OP posts:

JenWillsiam · 08/08/2023 21:07

Oh my lord. People. Testing is a legitimate part of training. What on earth is wrong with you people?! What they did was fine.

SapphireEyes88 · 08/08/2023 21:03

I would immediately raise a grievance with whoever is above the managers. I would state that there was an issue with "training" actually being a demeaning test and that the managers then tried to gaslight you rather than address the issue. It's bullying in the workplace, pure and simple. It has highlighted that whilst members of your team weren't given appropriate training, it appears the managers could also do with a refresher course.
I have form for not being able to keep quiet about stuff like this though! It has led to me leaving jobs because they were unable to follow due process and instead create witch hunts. I can't let stuff like that slide tbh

JenWillsiam · 08/08/2023 21:02

Ceci03 · 08/08/2023 20:59

@JenWillsiam how come?

Because you’ve been there less than 2 years and they don’t have to put up with this stuff.

Original poster

Ceci03 · 08/08/2023 20:59

@JenWillsiam how come?

OP posts:

Sugarfree23 · 08/08/2023 20:57

@Ceci03 I've not heard that one before but it's so so true. People will put up with a lot if they like and trust their boss.

JenWillsiam · 08/08/2023 20:50

Ceci03 · 08/08/2023 20:42

That's me nuttiest nutter on the planet @JenWillsiam

I would fully be prepared to lose my job in your shoes.

Original poster

Ceci03 · 08/08/2023 20:45

@Sugarfree23 thanks I guess people
Who advise you to say nothing to nobody just so your job and go home have got it right really. What is the point . I should
Know that by now. Just suck it up and get on with it. Yeh am definitely looking round. Nothing at the moment. Am losing hope
Though . Do good managers even exist. A friend said to "people don't leave jobs they leave managers" it's so true

OP posts:

Original poster

Ceci03 · 08/08/2023 20:42

That's me nuttiest nutter on the planet @JenWillsiam

OP posts:

JenWillsiam · 08/08/2023 20:41

Ceci03 · 08/08/2023 20:28

Just an update and thank for all the advice . ll try not to be too long! So I had the meeting this morning with the 2 managers. I'd prepared really well - I had 5 points for 'the test' and 5 points for 'the outburst' and a few points for 'going forward'. The thing is they argued with everything I said and tbh I've come away feeling very disappointed. And apologies for referring to my colleague as 'the part timer' - no judgement there I worked part-time myself for many years, and in a lot of ways it's harder as you often end up doing a full time job in a shorter period of time - it was just a way to refer to her that's all. I could have thought of something better. So the first thing was I apologised for my tone to the p-t colleague. Then we moved onto the test - they flat out denied it was a test - they said that the email invite had said they would be going over some tasks. I argued that it felt like a test, and that it was not transparent for them to call it training. But they wouldn't accept that at all. Just kept arguing with me. Said they felt it had gone really well and was useful. I said me and young colleague felt it was a test - they then argued again and said that he had not mentioned anything to them, - this is the young colleague who also felt bad afterwards - and I didn't mention we had had private convos I just said that at the meeting (where I lost it) he had said that he agreed with me and that the experience had made him feel small and he felt it was demeaning. This was big news to them apparently. They said he had said nothing to them. They kept saying that I was the only one who had a problem with it - basically they tried to make me out to be a nutter - that's how I felt. I said how I felt uncomfortable about them asking me to name names about who was making mistakes - and the manager who had said that just flat out denied it she said "no no I would NEVER say that". She looked at the other manager and said to her 'did I ever say that' and the other one just shrugged her shoulders. I was gobsmacked. I mean I know what she said, what they both had said. I swear I'm not making it up or embellishing or anything. We talked a bit about the p-t colleague and they said they hadn't asked her to 'look after' the team or take responsibility for us. I said were they going to talk to her but they just said 'oh well she's away this week'. I guess none of my business but I was disappointed. Afterwards I was chatting to young guy colleague and I said to him out straight that they had said he was fine with the whole test thing - he did look shocked and I think I believe him (though I understand he also could be playing me - and them) and he said he absolutely told them how he had felt after it, and exactly what he had said in the meeting - sure there were 4 of us there and we all heard him so he could hardly deny it..could he? I was so surprised at them basically lying to my face. I said to them ask the p-t person and the other lady, they heard it too. They just kept saying 'well this is news to us, he didn't mention any of this today'. And looking at each other and saying 'no he said never said anything like that - you're the only one who had a problem, and as you're the only one with a problem, we feel that you took it in the wrong way. Basically I'm the person at fault as I didn't take it in the way it was intended. Very frustrating. At the end one of them said I was doing a good job and they did appreciate my hard work. I feel very empty tonight. Was it worth it - the sleepless nights, the worry etc etc. I don't know honestly. I should feel better that I got it off my chest but I actually wonder would I feel just as bad/good if I had said nothing and kept my counsel. They don't seem to have taken on board anything I said, or accepted anything. In their eyes they did nothing wrong - I am a dramatic nutcase (in a "nut shell"!)

You are coming across like a nut case.

Sugarfree23 · 08/08/2023 20:39

Op I don't think they have a clue.

They are probably shitting themselves, that you and the lad have your CV on the market. Because if they loose you then that's them gone through 6 members of staff in 7 months, that has a very bad reflection on them. Their bosses will be asking questions.

Someone once said to me if someone leaves in the first 5/6 mths is a bad move, bad fit, people are settling in, getting to know how systems work getting to know people. When people move during the 7-12 mths there's a problem.

Do you know how long the 3 who left in January were there?

Original poster

Ceci03 · 08/08/2023 20:28

Just an update and thank for all the advice . ll try not to be too long! So I had the meeting this morning with the 2 managers. I'd prepared really well - I had 5 points for 'the test' and 5 points for 'the outburst' and a few points for 'going forward'. The thing is they argued with everything I said and tbh I've come away feeling very disappointed. And apologies for referring to my colleague as 'the part timer' - no judgement there I worked part-time myself for many years, and in a lot of ways it's harder as you often end up doing a full time job in a shorter period of time - it was just a way to refer to her that's all. I could have thought of something better. So the first thing was I apologised for my tone to the p-t colleague. Then we moved onto the test - they flat out denied it was a test - they said that the email invite had said they would be going over some tasks. I argued that it felt like a test, and that it was not transparent for them to call it training. But they wouldn't accept that at all. Just kept arguing with me. Said they felt it had gone really well and was useful. I said me and young colleague felt it was a test - they then argued again and said that he had not mentioned anything to them, - this is the young colleague who also felt bad afterwards - and I didn't mention we had had private convos I just said that at the meeting (where I lost it) he had said that he agreed with me and that the experience had made him feel small and he felt it was demeaning. This was big news to them apparently. They said he had said nothing to them. They kept saying that I was the only one who had a problem with it - basically they tried to make me out to be a nutter - that's how I felt. I said how I felt uncomfortable about them asking me to name names about who was making mistakes - and the manager who had said that just flat out denied it she said "no no I would NEVER say that". She looked at the other manager and said to her 'did I ever say that' and the other one just shrugged her shoulders. I was gobsmacked. I mean I know what she said, what they both had said. I swear I'm not making it up or embellishing or anything. We talked a bit about the p-t colleague and they said they hadn't asked her to 'look after' the team or take responsibility for us. I said were they going to talk to her but they just said 'oh well she's away this week'. I guess none of my business but I was disappointed. Afterwards I was chatting to young guy colleague and I said to him out straight that they had said he was fine with the whole test thing - he did look shocked and I think I believe him (though I understand he also could be playing me - and them) and he said he absolutely told them how he had felt after it, and exactly what he had said in the meeting - sure there were 4 of us there and we all heard him so he could hardly deny it..could he? I was so surprised at them basically lying to my face. I said to them ask the p-t person and the other lady, they heard it too. They just kept saying 'well this is news to us, he didn't mention any of this today'. And looking at each other and saying 'no he said never said anything like that - you're the only one who had a problem, and as you're the only one with a problem, we feel that you took it in the wrong way. Basically I'm the person at fault as I didn't take it in the way it was intended. Very frustrating. At the end one of them said I was doing a good job and they did appreciate my hard work. I feel very empty tonight. Was it worth it - the sleepless nights, the worry etc etc. I don't know honestly. I should feel better that I got it off my chest but I actually wonder would I feel just as bad/good if I had said nothing and kept my counsel. They don't seem to have taken on board anything I said, or accepted anything. In their eyes they did nothing wrong - I am a dramatic nutcase (in a "nut shell"!)

OP posts:

NancyJoan · 08/08/2023 12:05

Good luck today, OP!

CantHaveTooMuchChocolate · 07/08/2023 01:27

Mari9999 · 06/08/2023 16:50

@Ceci03
Your employers have the right to expect the accurate and correct output for which they are paying. Quality control testing is not and should not be a problem. They should however alert employees that this will be happening at random times.

Do you think it fair that employers should have to accept sub par work without trying to determine the source? An alternative might be to let the entire team go because they are unable to determine who is the source of the problem. They might also determine that the entire team needs retraining.

An employee who knows the job and functions well, really has nothing to fear from random testing.

“trying to determine the source” that’s the point, the ops employers should have the processes and tech in place to be able to know who made the mistake, and ideally they should be able to head these off long before they cause issues. The fact they have to do some underhand testing dressed up as “training” to try and discover the culprit months later shows how dire their processes, as well as their training and management skills are.

JenWillsiam · 06/08/2023 20:05

Mari9999 · 06/08/2023 16:50

@Ceci03
Your employers have the right to expect the accurate and correct output for which they are paying. Quality control testing is not and should not be a problem. They should however alert employees that this will be happening at random times.

Do you think it fair that employers should have to accept sub par work without trying to determine the source? An alternative might be to let the entire team go because they are unable to determine who is the source of the problem. They might also determine that the entire team needs retraining.

An employee who knows the job and functions well, really has nothing to fear from random testing.

This!!

Cocolebombom · 06/08/2023 19:54

Ceci03 · 03/08/2023 16:58

Thanks for the support everyone. She said a few times "I'm sorry to feel that way" which to me is a non apology as it puts the problem firmly back to you?

Oh pal grow up a bit. DON'T APOLOGISE. What are you apologising for? Stand by your guns and if they say you were intimidating/aggressive then state "I'm sorry you feel that way". You're in the right and she didn't take it on board. Noone else had the courage to say it and now they're trying to undermine you by making you think you were out of line. They sound like arse lickers to me. In future set up the email chain straight away or at least off your chest and into the manager's court. Kill them with kindness. What garbage.

Flakey99 · 06/08/2023 18:12

I agree that the managers sound very ineffective (what’s new?) and the entire situation is ridiculous for the OP, but I actually feel sorry for the p/t member of staff in this scenario too.

It’s unclear to me whether the extra training and resolving errors on behalf of the rest of the team is part of her job description or whether she was expecting her role to be working at the same level as the rest of the team?

Maybe the test wasn’t her idea but as they’re the expert, the managers are clearly relying on her to work out what’s going wrong, and if the test was at the manager’s behest, it would also explain why she kept referring to it as training and didn’t want to apologise for it being run as an ad hoc test. Perhaps she’s trying to distance herself from ownership of it too? Again, assuming the general incompetence of the management, you don’t know what shit she’s having to deal with from them. Maybe she hoped that p/t meant she could offload some of her responsibilities but often part timers end up getting dumped on by crap managers. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Unfortunately, I think you shot the wrong messenger at the zoom meeting and instead need to re-focus your annoyance towards the gaps in training and your managers’ lack of leadership, but put it far more subtly than that.

As others have said, write a list of key bullet points to refer to and take a breather and look down at the list if you feel yourself getting wound up at any point.

Good luck!

Suspific · 06/08/2023 18:00

It is hard to hold your nerve when someone keeps needling e.g. calling it training. But breathing slowly and pausing before you jump in with a response will help how you come across.