Grammar and teachers

I understand that you have other priorities than language. Even BBC English has lost its luster. Most of you talk very sloppily, not really an example for non-Brits to learn the language correctly. Oh well, there are other ways to learn English.

If it was informal speech, I'd be fairly relaxed (though it's not ideal for children who need to learn standard English). Also, as long as it wasn't the class teacher, I'd be OK with it. I'm old-fashioned enough to think that teachers should set an example and make an effort for the sake of their students. Young children particularly usually respect their teacher and will see them as exemplars.

I'm an English grad and I know all the stuff about languages developing/changing, informal/formal registers etc etc - all that stuff - but I still think children in education should be taught to use Standard English confidently. We do them no favours by side-stepping this, and the ones who we disadvantage most are those who'll never hear Standard English at home.

As an analogy, I used to to try to introduce the disadvantaged children in my classes to classical/world/folk music because these genres would probably not be accessible to them at home. Nothing wrong with pop music, but they'd have no trouble getting access to that.

No amount of trendiness will convince me otherwise!

*But, generally, when parents aren'tdoing their part of the job correctly, there's not a lot we can do about it.

A surprising number of parents don't teach their children very much at all and see it all as the school's job*

Not all parents can though. My dad didn't speak 'properly' to us, and he wrote in a similar way (he couldn't write well at all actually - I was writing letters for him when I was in primary school!). Think 'Ow am ya'. Thankfully my mum would correct spoken errors we made ("I was, you were") and so we managed. Plus I read lots and had good teachers. But lots of kids I went to school with didn't, and they had no idea what standard English even was.

@OldChinaJug I suppose it reflects our culture, but it is a shame.

I agree.

Tbh, it's something I've noticed more with the younger teachers - say 35 and under.

But I refer back to my previous posts about standard English not being heard on TV etc anymore.

The bottom line is that a lot of younger teachers didn't learn it either. They know it to teach it - but they don't use it.

Oh trust me, I do know that and we also have wonderfully supportive parents - I'm also a parent and my view was the same. But, generally, when parents aren't doing their part of the job correctly, there's not a lot we can do about it.

A surprising number of parents don't teach their children very much at all and see it all as the school's job.

@JudgeJ Yes, I think parents should teach speech, grammar and vocabulary and set a good example. It's really important. However, that doesn't mean educators don't need to do the same. They are authority figures and if they can't be bothered what does that teach children?

We're not allowed to highlight parental failings or expect parents to take responsibility for their children. It's all down to us.

Not all parents think like that though. Maybe most parents don't? I keep pointing out to my DC that the parent is the primary educator. This is often done in the hope that they'll listen to me as well as their teacher😀

I've not trawled all through this bashing thread but I do wonder why parents are not held to the same high standards or is it the case, as in most things. they expect teachers to take yet another responsibility from them?

Yes. Everything is our fault or responsibility to solve.

Including kids who have fights outside of school in the school holidays when the teachers are not at work according to another thread I read over the weekend.

We're not allowed to highlight parental failings or expect parents to take responsibility for their children. It's all down to us.

Whatever they are paid they should do their job properly including setting an example for children by using correct grammar, speaking The Kings English.

I've not trawled all through this bashing thread but I do wonder why parents are not held to the same high standards or is it the case, as in most things. they expect teachers to take yet another responsibility from them?
When a parent came into school ranting at me because her little cherub had been punished she told me that I talked too posh for a school like that! I thanked her for her kind observation, irony was clearly lost on her. BTW, I was born about 8 miles from the school though years of living elsewhere had probably smoothed things out.

@usersooty, you are so right.
But reverse snobbery is rife on MN.

This.

I teach UKS2 and it's hard to teach so that the children use it. The children don't code switch naturally simply because they aren't aware of it.

When I was a child, children's TV presenters, news broadcasters, children's programme narrators etc all spoke standard English and we were exposed to it then. But that had changed by the time my children were born and it had become more important for the presenters to sound more 'inclusive' and 'representative' and this was echoed across everything. It was regarded as 'progress', more relatable and less 'stuffy'. Children are generally now (almost) exclusively exposed to non standard English.

And then people wondered why people no longer used standard English and it became something that schools were blamed for and had to solve.

Children could code switch back then. I learnt to. My peers learnt to. We instinctively knew that we didn’t write a letter to our aunt thanking her for our birthday present in the same way we'd speak to our friends, for example. But now, unless it is taught/used at home, they have no idea that it even exists.

The looks on the children's faces when you explain it to them shows it all. Some will try to use standard English in their writing but it's all a bit alien to them; some have parents who think it's inportant and so will use it more easily. Some don't even try. They regard it as stupid, 'trying to sound posh' and find it a bit of a joke. Because they argue that no one speaks (and therefore writes) like that.

I've had children tell me that, for example, "I wrote/they weren't is the posh way of saying it whereas, I writ/they wasn't is the 'normal' way."

It's incredibly difficult to teach children standard English when they've spent their entire lives hearing people speak non-standard English.

Exactly. Where are they supposed to learn it?!

I have no shame in being an academic snob when it comes to the recruiting of teachers. If you couldn't achieve above a C in your own schooling, how on earth are you going to be able to teach a child the skills to achieve above that grade?

Precisely. But at the moment we are so desperate to recruit that we are appointing almost anyone who will take the job. We can't afford to be picky.

There is more than one type of standard English even within the UK, OP. Scotland has Scottish Standard English, for example. NI's standard is different too. It's important to remember that.

Lazyfucker, I am confident I am more knowledgeable than you about this issue.
I am a former primary school teacher with a degree in English, including some linguistics. I am also someone who acquired English aged 18 months, after my original first language, so I have been hyper-aware of how people speak and use language from an early age.

So, yes, consider yourself well and truly told! 🙄

I think you need to consider your bias here. Many people use different forms of standard English in speech. I would expect standard English to be taught in the classroom but I couldn't get worked up about how adults speak on a school trip.

*MyGuineaPigIs007 · Yesterday 22:08

Whatever they are paid they should do their job properly including setting an example for children by using correct grammar, speaking The Kings English*

Like a Pathe news presenter? If someone told me to use the Kings English l’d deliberately exaggerate my northern accent thank you.

"Plenty of people from the North and Midlands speak perfectly correct grammar."

You mean to say that they speak standard English because those people who use dialect also use perfect grammar (just not always standard).

"I would also correct them if they spoke to me in bad grammar. Eg Yo am, should be You are."

But that's NOT bad grammar in their dialect, is it?
You may have a rule in your classroom that dialect is not allowed (a very regressive one I would argue), but it's not bad grammar in their dialect.

" I have been a teacher for 10 years (upper KS2) and am yet to meet a child who can code switch."

You must be joking. Everyone code switches. Nobody writes exactly how they speak and nobody is incapable of changing registers.

"You don't need to be highly educated to use correct grammar. It is taught at primary school!

Not really. It wasn't much until the SATs reforms about 7 years ago"

As an 80s child I wasn't taught grammatical terms or rules in primary school. However, you learn grammar just by learning the language itself so it was always taught (in a certain way).

Catalan is a different language
It's not a regional variation.
It's not a dialect.
It's not incorrect Spanish.

You mean the King’s English? You need a possessive apostrophe.

I’m still laughing this thread has gone on for so long. If you’re going to have a pop - your grammar ought to be top notch. Op using apostrophes all over the place in plurals is peak MN.