That two parents working doesn’t work

I honestly dont know how 2 parents working ft with young kids can cope, its just existing not living.

kc431 - Surely you can imagine that some roles are largely international and unpredictable, requiring travel at short notice. Not everyone works fixed hours in a set place. Not everyone can say 'I work x hours' because it's not like that.

Obviously not, but most of the high-earning DHs whose important long-hours job NEEDS a SAHP to “facilitate”, aren’t doing these kind of jobs. They’re doing finance-in-London kind of jobs. My point was more that 1 parent working 60-70 hours a week earning 200k while one stays at home isn’t a very fair division of labour - there are many professional jobs where both parents can work reasonable hours and where going 4 days a week doesn’t ruin your career. In my team someone senior works 4 days a week, just because she wants more time for travel and hobbies. In response to the “you can’t be taken seriously unless you work round the clock” statement. And I’m pretty sure that in healthcare/policing/ambulance, it is possible to work part-time, and standard work is around 37.5h a week but done in shifts.

I agree that the balance is easier when one parent stays at home so that's what we chose to do.
DH has a great career and is a high earner whereas I've always worked in bars so it made sense for me to stay at home.
Youngest starts school in September so I'm starting to look at getting back into work. These past few years I don't think I personally would've coped with working and raising the kids/keeping the house.

24 hour

You're living in cloud cuckoo-land if you think everyone can have both parents working "in normal jobs with normal work-life balance" for 100k between them. Seriously? 😂Do you WANT this country to be able to educate its children? To provide social workers for the vulnerable? Round the clock nursing care? Police? 24 ambulance staff?

Maternity leave of 12 months is a career killer. I think 6 months of leave is a good amount for the typical birth.
My career is just fine. It would be over if I’d returned at six months, when my daughter was waking 20 times a night and my brain was custard. A year was perfect because by the end I was desperate to get to work, and I fucking hate working.

Many people talk on here about the Scandinavian style of child-rearing, where there is much more flexibility in the workplaces, for BOTH parents, and understanding is that sometimes family does come first. I don't know how this actually works out in real life

It works. And a father who works all hours and sees his kids only on occasional weekends would not be considered a great dad in Sweden, even if there was a SAHM at home.

That's interesting. I've always looked to N America as somewhere where it seems that parents are encouraged back to work far too early, while babies are very very young and developmentally still needing their mothers. If you can afford a "mother figure stand-in" type of childcare ie. nanny in the home, or even a grandparent, then great. Or part-time working hours. But how many very very young babies are being taken for 90% of their waking hours to what is basically institutional-style childcare, with baby rooms and multiple different care-givers who only form a basic professional "surface-level" bond, just to earn an average wage to cover basic bills? I don't agree with the "work is everything" mantra that many developed countries push. I think we've got it wrong. I think it's a government-pushed agenda to rake in the taxes, personally. Why reduce women to uteruses, only serving to produce the next generation of worker bees. What IS the point?

Many people talk on here about the Scandinavian style of child-rearing, where there is much more flexibility in the workplaces, for BOTH parents, and understanding is that sometimes family does come first. I don't know how this actually works out in real life, but if that does actually happen then surely that's what we should be aiming for? To acknowledge that work is actually NOT the be all and end all for most.

It's hard to say really because none of us have the full picture.

I dont know how much you and DH are making and how much you are spending on childcare in order to make that salary possible. I dont know what your lifestyle is like and how you prioritise your spending. I dont know how much you love your job or how much attaining your level of seniority in your profession depends on you being full time forever.

Personally I'd rather drop down my hours down at work and cut out things like weekly meals out, holidays abroad and new clothing. I think I would find the extra time to get my shit together more fulfilling than all of those things put together. My husband would also probably like me better day to day as I'd be less stressed! Our home environment might look less grand, but it would be a calmer home. I am however, under no illusions that you may not have the option to cut down because you are simply working so hard just for the roof on your head, good food on the table and the bare necessities just about covered, as so many are. 💗

You can always pick up more hours once kids are older and all 3 are at school.

This is just what i would have to do in order to cope with 3 kids of that age group, work and do all that clubs running about. There is no judgement 💗

Of course they don’t, they’re babies. Lack of awareness doesn’t make something untrue.

@Citrines your example is essentially an illustration of utterly dysfunctional parenting. No wonder those children ended up with issues.

Is it representative of how most couples who both work parent? Absolutely not.

A baby does not have an awareness of financial provision or the future. They can't even feel separation anxiety until about 7 months because they don't have a concept of you as 'other' to them. When it hits them, it can be quite a shock.

I disagree. Without all of the other responsibilities, they are providing care but not raising.

Providing care is helping to raise him. More than you think in the 0-5 bracket.
It takes a village to raise a child as the saying goes!

YANBU.

I must admit I find things extremely full on and exhausting too. I have 3DC as well, though mine are older - 15, 12 and 10. DH and I work full time. He has a 4 on, 4 off pattern of long days, though generally picks up extra. Technically I work 8:30-5, though also regularly end up doing long days/extra shifts. Some weeks I might have one day off. Most of the time I’m having to catch up on documentation at home, as there hasn’t been enough time in the day seeing patients/supporting colleagues/answering questions/doing referrals. I’m the only one that can drive too out of me and DH.

Sometimes I am just so knackered that I can’t think straight, and days off I just want to collapse and rest but I can’t because life. Some people work part time, and it does seem to be such a better work/life balance, but we can’t afford for me or DH to do that. We pick up the additional hours because we need to. We are due to move house in a matter of weeks, so it’s definitely not a possibility to drop hours. On our “basic” salaries with no additional hours we are fine within the budgets we’ve worked out, but will need the extra as DC require more things etc. I don’t know what the answer is, but can only sympathise.

They provide care for him when we’re at work but no, they don’t raise him.

Yes exactly- You are both raising him- the lion share will be you, but whosever has him in the day will have a significant hand in raising him too

But that dismisses what else is involved in raising a child.

Nursery don’t provide for my baby financially
Nursery don’t think about or plan his future
If he’s poorly at nursery, they call me or his dad
If he’s awake at night, I don’t call his keyworker because she doesn’t raise him, we do.

Exactly this. Anyone who has studied early years wouldn’t fail to agree. 0-5 is the most important development stage and sets the stage for the rest of that persons life in many ways.
Issues arise many many years later if stability, security and attachment is not sufficient in these years.
I sometimes do wonder how people fail to make the connection.

I disagree and actually that’s a bit insulting to those who actually do the care, hands on part.
Raising involves every adult who has taught, guided, instructed, modelled behaviour over a significant time frame. So very much childminders, nursery, pre schools (if at them for a significant time) and even school teachers. Although school teachers more in the education sense.
The people who care for very young children on a daily basis are assisting in raising them - they are not robots programmed to copy and follow you in every word and deed. They are passing on their own care style, attitudes, words, voice, tone, behaviours, view of the world to the child in every interaction. The child learns from them how the world works, how to treat others, what to he scared of and not scared of, when we use a calm voice or not, how to be soothed, how to react in an unexpected even such as falling over or another child hitting.
If your child is being cared for by someone else, you are entrusting them with all this and it most definitely counts as raising because these learned behaviours will stay with them a life time subconsciously.

I think it really depends on how long a child is in a nursery and what age they are.

Friends of ours always had a nanny from 6 months and both parents world be out by 7.30am and not back until 6/7pm (or later very often if our with clients etc). At the weekends they didn't let the baby nap because that was 'their family time.' They would just go out for lunch and wonder why the baby was so cranky. By 4pm the baby would be beside himself because he was out of the routine the nanny had them in during the week. Often either or both patents would be overseas too. This continued with the second child. I wouldn't say the parents were not raising the children (because financially providing is obviously part of parenting) but they were not doing much of the actual hands-on parenting. Far less than normal. I saw what the nanny did, day in day out - all the little things. By the time the third child came along, it was unsustainable, so the DH became a SAHD (but kept the nanny on) because she just couldn't do the homework and all the driving around / pick -ups etc and be across school liaisons and homework. Fast forward 15 years. The kids are lovely. One is absolutely fine - he has no issues at all. The second DS has a serious mental health issue that developed very suddenly at 15 and the psychiatrist told them it was because of insecure attachment issues. The other one is generally fine, but has also had some issues as a teen (won't stay away from home or go on school trips) and the psychologists have also put it down to insecure attachment. The mum said that she didn't prioritise the early years because she always said didn't see the point as "they don't remember it anyway.' But now she sees how insecure / disorganised attachment patterns are internalised and MAY manifest later in ways you may not expect.

Raising is decision making
choosing who looks after your child when a parent is not covering those hours , school , ethos religion or non etc , diet, weekend activities. Etc

I wouldn’t say it’s even passing the child raising.

Nursery care for my son but they don’t raise him.

We make sure he’s somewhere safe when we’re at work
We provide for him financially
We stay awake with him at night when he’s poorly and crying for me/his dad, funnily enough not his keyworker
We think about and plan for his future, again not his keyworker
He’ll have different keyworkers and teachers throughout his life but we’ll be part of his life growing up forever (and of course when he’s an adult) because we’re his parents and we without a doubt raise him.

Why make this into a SAHM vs WOHM thing? I think both are valid choices, not saying being a SAHM isn’t valuable but I grew up with both parents working and it set a great example for me. It meant my dad was just as hands on with childcare and housework (but to be fair not so much mental load) as my mum. My family life wasn’t perfect by any means but I had a lovely childhood and my parents working wasn’t a disadvantage- we had a nice home, holidayed every year, had day trips on weekends, money for school trips etc and I was grateful for those things.

We’re doing the same with our daughter, she sees that both mum and dad can work, both mum and dad can be the carer, plus she’s getting time with other children in childcare which she enjoys and gets different experiences there than we provide at home. She’s only 1 year old, I expect if you asked her in a couple of years if she would just want mum around all the time she’d probably say yes, but that’s not necessarily what’s best for her, or me, or us as a family.