That two parents working doesn’t work

I have not said you are not raising your child or that there's something wrong with anyone?

I'm telling you that, as a SAHM, I 100% understood what I was doing and why I was doing it and for me, I couldn't have imagined doing anything else once kids came along. It's really irritating being told "oh it's just socialisation" - as if I need to wake-up and see the light or something. I'm fully aware of the impact of socialisation - it's unavoidable - but I KNOW in myself that it wasn't just that.

See it as an investment in your career and firefight for now.

Does batch cooking save much time if you still have to cook vegetables? Our meals were simple at that age - pork chops, chicken thighs, veg into microwave stem bags, pasta cooked with frozen veg in same pot.

Agreed, and it also assumes there is only one correct way of raising a child. Which is frankly bullshit.

It's also frustrating to be told or it implied that you aren't raising your child, you're never there for them and clearly something must be wrong with you biologically because you don't want to be with your child 24/7.

Get more help. Cleaner. Nanny/au-pair. Laundry service. Nutritious ready meals.

Or - if (as often happens) a woman feels a strong instinct to have a child at a certain point in her life, but then other women who don't feel that are telling her in MN it's just 'socialisation' and biology has nothing to do with it. That's the only way I can describe it. It's very frustrating.

@SouthLondonMum22 - I don't really care if it's biology or what it is. It's how I am.

The only way I can think to explain this to you is - if I told you I was heterosexual. And then you came back insisting that I'm only heterosexual because of socialisation, nothing more.

I would say to you, that yes, we are socialised in a hetero-normative world, but it's more than that - it's innate and instinctive.

It’s only a fact if you have a very short sighted view of what raising a child actually is.

Hi @Itsmyshadow ,

I've two children 8 and 5, and I only just figured this out.

I've been wondering for the past year or so why everything seems so ridiculously difficult. I worked out about a month ago that we've been doing it all wrong. My husband and I have been trying to hold down full-time jobs. We've no friends or family support, no disposable income for cleaners or babysitters, au pairs etc.

We can function, i.e. we can all get to where we need to be each day, all be dressed, mostly clean! and mostly fed. But none of us are happy, it's all such a drag. We don't have the time/energy inclination to be as loving, giving, thoughtful, or invested in anyone else, not even ourselves - everything is non-stop. I feel like a zombie most days.

In an ideal world, I would recommend that in a 2x parent household, one parent needs to have a minimum of 2x full days completely free and the other parent, possibly 1x full day completely free. I don't think trying to split part-time hours over 5 days is any good either, as it's not possible to just be in house/family/personal mode, as part of the day is still dedicated to one's employer.

During this non-employed time, batch cooking, cleaning, tidying, shopping, DIY, personal self-care and personal development can take place.

Evenings and weekends can be dedicated to supporting, encouraging and appreciating the other members of your family. There will always be obligations, which may have to encroach on family time, but in the current set-up that we have a family, I don't believe that we have time to do anything well at all.

Once you're earning the kind of money which affords private schools, after-school nannies, baby-sitters, cleaners, evenings out, regular holidays etc etc, perhaps the need to have dedicated days for the house/personal time is less necessary - I'm not sure on that one 😕

The early years are incredibly tough whether you both work or not, unless one of you is earning £££££. We weren't. We were tired and broke - no family help with childcare either.

But impossible? No.

There’s a lot of bad stuff that can happen to a child in their formative years and holiday clubs are far from the worst!

That being said I do think there’s little acceptance on these threads that we don’t all want to do things the same way. I have nothing against other people making choices that suit them. For me, I don’t want my children in wraparound care or with a childminder before or after school so I work part time even though I’d actually prefer FT. That’s my choice and I accept I can’t have it every which way as I am sure the OP does!

The same could also be said by those who are determined it’s largely biology.

I’m also there for my child. I just happen to work too.

My two are 9 and 10 and I'm still not back at work properly. I work evenings now. TBH one has ASD and full time working just wouldn't work. He needs me at school (in case he has to be picked up) , I simply have to go to school assemblies, sports days etc as he wouldn't cope if I didn't and he needs me for the transition at the end of the school day.

I'm quite happy. I don't personally see the point of having kids if you're literally going to pay someone else to do everything for them and you don't get to see them. I'd rather have less. Poor kids who get shoved into holiday clubs every day during school holidays.

If you work full time you will be spending almost half the child’s waking time away from them (unless you work nights- but then when do you sleep?)
So it’s fair to say someone else is also responsible for raising them, whether you like it or not, it’s a fact.

I don’t think 4 days per week working is the solution. It’s a great deal for work. Work pays you 4 days and you have to try to fit your previously 5 day per week job (which doesn’t change) into those 4 days. It’s for this reason that I’m not dropping down to 3 days as work would be even harder. But I don’t want DC1 in nursery 5 long days so will carry on with my 4 days for now.

This is one of your biggest problems.

Arrange a meeting with your line manager about your work load. Detail in writing what you did previously when you worked full-time and what percentage of your time each task took. Then discuss with your line manager what 20% of your work load you are going to drop now that you are only working 80% of full-time hours. You'll need to be very firm and be clear that the only thing up for discussion is which tasks you are dropping.

Not entirely.
Most women have more than one child. Which means at least two lots of Mat leave so up to 2 years not at work.
On top of that, because of biology many women are the ones who want to stay off longer with their babies. Hormones, breast feeding, and arrangement due to being with the baby whilst recovering from birth.
To make things truly equal, a wand needs to be raised to allow men to carry, deliver and feed babies. Only then would any remote sort of equality be reached- otherwise it’s a farce to even pretend.

@SouthLondonMum22 -"I don't find it hard to grasp at all. Women are socialised from birth to be the default parent because of how ingrained sexism is in society."

With respect, I think it suits you to put the whole thing down to socialisation because (it sounds like?) you didn't feel an urge to be a SAHM.

It's fine to not be cut out to be. SAHM, but you have no right to reject what I, and other women, are clearly telling you.

If you feel you want to be there for your child, it can be the strongest, most innate instinct imaginable. I couldn't really describe it or think of anything to compare.

Societal influence is part of it - as with everything - but it's much, much, deeper than that. I am 50 years old. I know my own mind and what I felt. That's it. And I would fo the same again with all the benefit of retrospect.

Both work full time here, I study on top and partner has his own business that runs across 7 days. I do about 99% of childcare, about 95% of housework and all the mental load. I make the most of lunchtimes to clean as I work from home. No extracurriculars Fri-Sun, swimming once a week and only 1 additional extra curricular to keep it manageable (1 child). The main thing is minimalism in the home. The less is more approach with toys, decor, clothes and stuff was the biggest game changer for me. A quick reset and tidy daily is far more manageable without all the junk

I think something has to give OP.
I agree with PP it could be swimming lessons. Can you go to a floats session at the local pool on a Saturday or Sunday? It's what I do...DD had plateaued in her swimming lessons and it seems a waste of time and money. When she's in the pool at floats session or on holiday with us she seems to learn more in an hour than a month's worth of 30-45 min lessons in a group.

I think you are working a lot of hours. I don't know (m)any mums who have more than 2 kids who work so many days. Hats off to you but it sounds so hard.
If there's any way to reduce your hours I would.
Not sure what other solution is. I only have 1 (lazy partner though!) and work 4 days with a pretty long commute and little grandparent help and still find it tough. It seems like I'm always behind on something whether it's work, housework, life admin or personal care.
I skimp on sleep in order to get everything thing done. Wouldn't recommend it.
Hope you are able to find a solution that works x

Added to that - with after school activities on the days I worked the nanny or au pair had to take them. It it was too far to walk (some of out nannies drove and some didn’t) I’d try to negotiate a rota with other parents that I’d bring back instead of taking… otherwise they couldn’t do the activity - it was pre covid so never worked from home. It just wouldn’t have worked without a nanny or
au pair.

Nannies were all Eastern Europeans who’s been au pairs and now wanted to do live out jobs. Not qualified in any way. Harder now after Brexit.

I don't find it hard to grasp at all. Women are socialised from birth to be the default parent because of how ingrained sexism is in society.

It's hardly surprising. The sexism is my main issue.

Not easy. I did 3 days when my DC were small as I figured that the most important thing was to keep my career going, and after childcare and tax I didn’t earn much. Can you switch down to 3 days?

We had nanny (was cheaper than nursery as for first DC we shared her with a friend who had DC same age and once we had 2 or 3 DC was cheaper than nursery and after school childcare. We switched to an au pair once youngest DC in reception.

We also had a cleaner a couple of times a week. The nanny did the kids laundry and cooked dinner for the kids.

But agree it’s not easy .

I could only go back to work once littlest was 5 and full time school, plus their dad works from home, it wouldn't work otherwise.
I don't understand how both parents can have out of the house full time jobs, unless heavily reliant on other people.
Most of us don't have family to help etc

"It’s a societal issue. Society is sexist and believes women should be the default parent."

Yes and, mindblowing though this may be, society is half women and many women WANT to be default parent. Why is this so hard for some women to grasp?

I never would have considered anything else!

@Thepeopleversuswork totally agree with you. The mantra that "someone else raises your child" is really offensive.

Life is a series of choices. If you have 3 young children and refuse to take the financial hit of a nanny (obviously assuming this is possible) then yes, you're in for a tricky few years