That two parents working doesn’t work

This is not the 1950s.

Why shouldn't women be able to have "fancy careers" unlike men?

You sound jealous tbf that you don't have one

"The message that caring for others is boring and mindless is another way that we devalue the role of carers in our society. "

I wonder how much the women (because it is 99% women) earn who work in nurseries? Minimum wage? And I wonder if some posters on here think childminders are somehow beneath them, like SAHMs, and that the work they do is sooo boring and mindless?

DH and I both work 45hrs + a week. You are in the worst of it OP - it will get easier when the youngest is 3 and has funded pre-school and kids can do more.
We have a cleaner once a week. We have a gardener once a fortnight.
Cars are either driven through a car wash or the kids wash them for money.
Meals are planned 2 weeks in advance - once a week we have a freezer dinner (oven tea!), once a week I use a batch cooked dinner.
I don't have clutter. If it doesn't have a useful function or is really sentimental, it gets binned.
Kids have labelled storage tubs under their beds. They have to put things away or they don't get pocket money.
I do minimal ironing. I do a wash a day and put the clean laundry on beds for people to put away.
It's hard but so much easier for everyone in the family to do 15 mins of chores a day rather than one person do an hour.

I had those age gaps but only went back 2.5 days a week. It was our most intense time when they were the same age as yours, but it does get easier. I upped my hours when they all went to school.

I answered a question.

I did find maternity leave to be boring and mindless and felt much better when I went back to work. Am I supposed to lie about that? Or are women only allowed to say that they loved every minute and want to be a SAHM forever?

It would be whoever the lower earner, which makes sense if the childcare is unaffordable

Absolutely agree @CatsSnore! I am mum to 3 and work FT. SO much easier because there isn’t any thought process about “how will we get dc1 to cubs whilst dc3 is at football” - it’s a lot more binary and there aren’t options or logistics, I can either do it or I can’t. No jiggling diaries between two people. Each dc still does at least 3 activities a week so I don’t think they are missing out that badly.

Maybe there is an additional mental load that comes with having to divide up chores, even if this is shared equally you still have to be on the ball and know that someone else is doing x and you are doing y so you don’t have to worry about x.

But @Itsmyshadow my advice would be to:

a) cut down on the amount of household textiles you have. Fewer towels, sheets, duvet sets etc. and also clothes. You may stick the washing machine on just as often but it won’t pile up (because there isn’t enough to create a pile before you need something so have to wash it) and it means that those piles of clean washing that linger before being put away and get mixed up with dirty stuff don’t exist.

b) have less stuff in general. Be ruthless, aim for cupboards to have neat boxes in for storage and that if a box gets full then it needs editing.

I would say that I am aspiring to both things rather than achieving them fully but am nearly there and it has already massively reduced the amount of time I spend pushing back the tide of utter crap that my 3 boys and I are capable of creating.

It is fucking hard. I feel for you.

True equality if valuing both caring and earning as important as each other. And not putting down one by saying ‘it would drive me insane with boredom’

Yes lovely, but why is it always women who are supposed to take the 'caring' roles and who are judged as unfit parents if they decide to go for the earning option? People are different, there are many earning careers as well that would be ill suited for me and that I would find boring - I'm allowed not to choose them. But apparently not allowed to choose to be an unpaid full time carer?

Great post @PimmsandCucumbers. Exactly!

Just to add that I think it’s much more manageable when they are at school. I worked part-time when mine were preschool age.

Bizarrely I've just sat down to rethink my whole life as its just not working properly. I recently got sucked into working too many hours (self employed) and as a result house out of control and I am getting stressed, especially if child off school sick!!!

On top of that long Covid and three family deaths in past two months and I have gone splat.

So I have tried to rethink everything!

The message that caring for others is boring and mindless is another way that we devalue the role of carers in our society.

Being a carer is a really important role, one that is vital for our society.

Women are often the carers, and that’s OK. It’s more than OK, women are doing a really valuable and skilled job, as carers.

I am well educated and independent, and have worked hard all of my life in challenging and skilled environments. At first that was in a scientific role, and then when I had a child with significant SN as a carer. Both roles are mentally fulfilling, stimulating, useful and important. And as is often the case, my child would not be getting the quality of care from a nanny, he has had continuity of care to a high level and that could not be bought in.

If my sons grow up to value women enough and the caring role enough to place value on either the father or mother being a SAH parent then that’s a really great thing. Sometimes you really can’t have it all, as there is always a cost.

Women don’t ‘win’ equality by chucking away and demeaning the caring role to ‘join men’. True equality if valuing both caring and earning as important as each other. And not putting down one by saying ‘it would drive me insane with boredom’ as if it’s something ‘lesser’ than a career.

4 days is a lot if you have 3 kids. Some ideas:

Could he do something more or different. It sounds like your kids have a lot on. Can they bus it, or do less?

Do you use holiday clubs so you get your own day off?

Can you afford a babysitter the odd time?

Do your kids tidy up. Easier said than done but could that improve?

Can cooking be simplified think one pot meals.

And whether you all like it or not, you are absolutely not raising your kids. You're farming them out.

Has anybody mentioned day orphanages yet? Although I've always found those way too fancy and prefer to have my offspring raised by wild wolves.

I've totally stopped ironing. Agree with big de clutter

Yes, I loved our childminder. She was an art student and came to our house and made our tea but we could do our own thing, lots of time to read and chill out. We went to her house sometimes for a treat to meet her kittens. And 12+ I learned to cook and made dinner for my parents’ arrival home, so we all ate dinner together proudly made by me and I went off to university with a killer repertoire of cookery skills and independence.

OP. I can see why taking work out of the equation makes the most sense: aside from sleep it’s the single biggest number in the “hours taken up by this” column. Remove work and you suddenly have 40 hours plus commute time to play with to achieve everything else! To gain 40 hours elsewhere you’d need to chop at a little bit of everything: outsource some cleaning, cut an activity, shave a corner here, do less there, and it still won’t add up to 40 hours, it’ll take lots of thinking about (and you’re already doing all the thinking), and might feel unsatisfying – sporty kid unhappy, house still a bit messy, diet very “oven food”, etc.

But! Do you actually need 40 spare hours? Or do you need just a few more spare hours? You’ve said you do the majority of the mental load, so there’s a chunk that could be easily offloaded to your DH. The hard reset suggested early in the thread (before it went off on a tangent) to take some leave and do a ruthless declutter, suddenly there’s more hours in the week because there’s less stuff to move around. Maybe you switch to intensive “learn in a week” swimming lessons and all go for a family swim once a week on the weekend, buying back your day off. Basically work smarter, not harder. It doesn’t have to be all or nothing, SAHM or FT working parent. Your husband really should be taking on some of the thinking: and not in a “I’ll do the shop but tell me what to buy” way, in a genuine, you know the pantry is continually restocked and the fridge has all the things for dinner, but you’re not involved beyond writing any requests you personally have on the whiteboard.

@ladyvivienne that's harsh but I do agree with some elements of the post.

I do feel sometimes we are on a hamster wheel without actually thinking about what we want and what is important.

I definitely want females in all jobs previously dominated by men but taking a few years out or part time doesn't mean anything interesting the grand scheme of a life.

My husband and I work full-time and have two school aged kids. Although we are both busy and I feel like I have a big mental load with all the admin, it generally works fine. Things that make it manageable:

Fortnightly cleaner
I do a wash every morning, put it in the tumble drier at lunch time then put away while the 5 year old is in the bath or getting ready for bed.
I don’t iron
I tidy up from meals and wipe down kitchen straight away
We all keep our stuff tidy daily so everyone has to put things away, make beds, put washing in basket, put shoes away etc
The kids go to after school club every day.
We have arranged their clubs so they are at convenient times and locations, so mostly on a Saturday or later in the evening.
I spend a bit of time doing any admin needed once they are in bed bed
Online shopping

What is an “fancy career” is it anything full time or is it just something with a professional qualification that earns well?
Also does anyone want to live in a world were doctors, surgeons, lawyers, MPs, architects, educators etc don’t have children? That would be such a 1 dimensional society.
What an odd statement. It honestly doesn’t sound like you live in the real world with that comment.

Why do only women need to make that choice? Men have 'fancy careers' as parents all of the time and no one tells them they need to make a choice.

@ladyvivienne There is such a thing as happy medium. Women need to stop trying to have it all and accept the need to make a choice. Personally if you're choosing a fancy career over being with your baby, maybe you shouldn't have bothered having the baby in the first place.

What did your husband say when you pointed that out to him? Presumably he didn’t make the choice to be with his children?

They are GPs so tend to start work early - 7-8ish usually (they take turns in starting at 7 or 8) - and most schools locally do start breakfast club by 8. Then they’ll stay in school until 4:30 in various clubs before pick up. Then weekends are spent entirely with the kids - biking, walking etc. They are extremely organised

Not currently working since having my 4th ( not out of choice - redundancy) but I just kept on lowering my standards.

I only wfh once a week. I never lowered my standards at work as if I was working I was always 100% but I lost the will to get promoted and played work safe. I just couldn't handle the stress of moving team or hours, location etc.

At home my standards was low. We did lots of after school clubs and I avoided being home

Have to be honest, reading all of this is making me even more convinced I made the right choice to be with my children rather than simply 'earning more money'

Trust me. If you drop dead you will be replaced within the week. If you're working FT at the detriment of the needs (emotional) of your children then you're not being a brilliant mum. Yes, your children may be better clothed than mine. Yes, you've got more money. But you don't have more. You have less.

And whether you all like it or not, you are absolutely not raising your kids. You're farming them out. But that makes you all feel guilty so you object to it.

There is such a thing as happy medium. Women need to stop trying to have it all and accept the need to make a choice. Personally if you're choosing a fancy career over being with your baby, maybe you shouldn't have bothered having the baby in the first place.

Schools do have a part in raising kids though. A school is a huge influence because a child is making sense of themselves and the world in this environment. How much time a child spends in an environment will obviously have an impact, especially in the early years when development is so rapid and susceptible to influence.