That two parents working doesn’t work

What does birth have to do with the early years? Women have 12 months maternity leave in the UK, they can also stack annual leave on top. Going back to work is irrelevant to breastfeeding as firstly most babies are not BF at 12 months and if they are it is perfectly possibly to BF in the morning and evening. I know many women who did that when they returned to work, it was not a problem at all.

Your comments are just fucking bizarre and you don’t seem to realise. Your husband is a great dad and has a great career but you can’t be a fabulous mum and a dedicated employee at the same time?
Its fine with your husband doesn’t get home to see his kids for days at a time but it’s sad when a mum only picks her kids up on Friday?

In the real world most working parents are not out from 7- 8/9pm. They pick their kids up between 5-6, they spend time with them every night, they make them dinner, they bath them, they put them to bed and they get up and see them again the next morning. And I say they because it is they, both parents are an active and engaged in their children’s lives.

Personally I think the idea of a sahm at the expense of the other parent having quality time with their child is selfish, dated and not beneficial to children. If both parents are on the scene they should both be raising their children.
No doubt you have some views on single parents but other that a pay cheque in the day to day that was actually the set up you had.

@ThroughGraceAlone firstly, the smoking analogy is just low. Smoking causes cancer and affects non smokers. Working as a mother is tough but if done right there is no intrinsic harm. The analogy is rude - once again families with two working parents are labelled second best. It is this that irritates those of us who work. I respect SAHMs. Shame that respect is not returned; who is having the niggling doubts here? Surely it's the posters going after working women.

Secondly, I gather you are in the US. You cannot extrapolate to other countries in terms of the data. Lastly, you ignore the fact that committed same sex couples in stable relationships have equal or better outcomes compared to opposite sex couples.

I agree OP is in an unsustainable situation and needs to make changes. That doesn't mean it's like that for everyone.

@Itsmyshadow

I saw you said

Dropping those gives huge guilt as if I was a SAHM we wouldn’t have the same issues.

I realise it's just words but I would reframe this sort of thought in your mind. If your DH was a SAHD you wouldn't have the same issues either.

You can only sustain a certain number of activities because you BOTH work not because you work.

Yes I absolutely feel this. You are not alone. I feel like I’m doing a below par job at pretty much everything. Last week was very stressful and I didn’t have chance to keep on top of the house in the weekdays. This meant that between us, myself and my husband spent 8 hours (I kid you not) getting on top of the house on Saturday. Then on Sunday I spent 2 hours doing my car as I’d been driving a dust bin around for weeks.

I try to remind myself that what we are trying to do is actually impossible. I’d argue that we are the first generation of women where it’s actually normal and expected that we work and have a family. I guess we have to financially ☹️. Even my mum was a stay at home mum while we were little. The home work and mental load hasn’t changed, only we are expected to also fit a job into the mix too. It’s no wonder we feel like we are failing!

Let’s be honest men haven’t really stepped and up and adapted in most households, it’s women who still carry most of everything. Don’t underestimate how tiring carrying the mental load is. I’d recommend a Facebook group called “bridging the gap” to get some ideas about this.

I don’t really have any advice other than to be really kind to yourself. Even if it might not look like it from the outside, we are all feeling like this in some way.

Yeah and my grandma smoked till the age of 97, wasn't sick a day in her life. Shall we encourage smoking now?
Reality is, the woman is the one giving birth and breastfeeding, how is it sexist to point out that logically she's the one to stay at home in the early years. Bilogically the child initially also has a stronger bond to the mom, because he knows her voice etc. I mean where will this equality end? Why don't you give birth and then go back to work after 3 days and your husband take mat leave for a year? Its just dumb to say that equality is the reasons mom stay at home. It's biological

Thing is, it is really hard. We're not saying 1 parent can always stay at home. But what we can say is that we can see the negative effects of both parents working full time more often than not. I work as an OT in a paeds practice with kids from all walks of life, and I can also fairly quickly guess who'se moms are at home or at least a lot more involved, eg part timers/school hours. It is sad, because it isn't always possible but doesn't negate that we see this?
For example research shows it is beter to grow up with a mom and a dad. Kids in 2 parent households on average have higher grades, lower dropout rates, better behaviour, lower chance of teen pregnancies, lower chance of ending in povertu etc etc. SO research clearly shows this. Does it mean it is always possible ? no/ Same kids's dad or mom has sadly passed on. That's life. But it doesn't mean that research isn't clear

The thread title asks "AIBU that two working parents doesn't work?"

The OP has three DC, Three. It's not the same as having one or two.

It's no good coming on and saying "oh well I'm fine and don't I don't need to SAH, so why are you asking this - it makes me feel attacked!" when you only have one child! Ffs! Don't people read the OP?

The vast majority of people who know what it is to have three or more DC are rightly saying it's a real struggle trying to juggle two full-time jobs and three or more DC and this is why they have a SAHP, work-part time or some different flexi arrangement. That's not SAHMs attacking anyone! It's just being honest about the reality of life with three kids. I have four, but I remember the jump to three - the dynamic changes and you are outnumbered!

I sympathise OP. Must be very busy working and also raising three DCs including two under 5. You sound v tired and a bit resentful, so I hope you can get yourself on a better track. Not sure PPs who are telling you to start micromanaging what DH does and doesn’t do are being helpful, seems as if he does a lot.
a few suggestions: swimming is important but a 4 year old and 1 year old do not need swimming lessons at the moment so cut that out until next summer at least and then do it for the 4/5 year old only.
is there anything you can do to tweak your work hours to give yourself a bit more time for the housework/child responsibilities? If at all possible you need to reduce work hours a bit.
Tackle the house/mess/running to stand still feeling because this is getting you down and I’m not surprised. Could you have a full sort out as others have suggested, being brutal and getting everything in its place? After that you have to find time in your routine to put things back in their place, with everyone in the household doing what they can.
Cut more corners. Can you reduce washing? Does 8 year old need all their activities? Get help in - someone to clean/tidy/ sort washing or to entertain the children and clear up afterwards while you do something else.
Lastly, more days out/ afternoons out / picnics and park / walks / special movie nights or games nights in for family bonding or as a break from the relentless day to day chores.
Good Luck.

If she has a choice of staying home and spending time with her family, getting on top of household maintenance etc. then that should be encouraged

Why? The poster didn't actually ask if she should quit her job. She asked how other families who work a lot, manage. But instead of that, she gets: you must quit work, you're farming out your children to strangers, they will be damaged, what a horrible selfish person who only cares about her fancy job. Seems that some SAHMs have a nagging doubt inside, if they need to push their lifestyle as the only right solution, eh?

Re the "stuff" issue:

I'd really recommend just going hardcore on gifts.

Talk to friends and relatives about doing no-present pacts. Talk honestly to grandparents about the "stuff" problem and state clearly that you'd like them to stick to consumables and experiences. Do gift-free parties only and communicate politely but very clearly to guests about this (I have a standard template message that I use for party invites which you are welcome to use, if you like). Establish some transparent family rules about free gifts, gift shop crap and random bits of plastic, and stick to them.

I live in a small apartment and detest clutter, so made the decision to just be really firm and unembarrassed about this about ten years ago - it truly does make a difference.

There are Mumsnetters on here who will give you a hard time about this kind of stuff and make you feel like you are controlling or a killjoy. Ignore them. Put your mental health and that of your kids first. Your kids deserve a happy parent, not one who is frazzled and resentful because she spends so much of her time sorting through boxes of plastic tat and endlessly trying to tidy up.

But you have to communicate clearly with other people and be very honest with them.

The poster is drowning. If she has a choice of staying home and spending time with her family, getting on top of household maintenance etc. then that should be encouraged. Plenty of time to return to work when all the children are in full-time education. It's just a different stage for her right now.
Does she have that choice? Does she want that? Why isn’t it OK to encourage, as lots of posters have, her to cut some of the activities, get her DH to do 50% mental load and 50% housework without her nagging/huffing/puffing? Because nagging another adult is another part of her mental load.

Who can say if there’s plenty of time for her to return to full time – we don’t know her age, career, pension status. We do know it’s difficult for women to return to the workforce after long breaks, that tech and jobs can move on and leave people behind, that qualifications can need renewing, that it’s harder to get a job when you’re out of work, that it’s harder to get a job when you’re older.

And maybe she likes her job and her kids and is seeking a balance, maybe she needs solutions, maybe she does want to stop work and have this validated, maybe she doesn’t want to feel alone. It’s not as simple (it rarely is) as “this is hard so quit your job”.

Well said fluffy. Why are people getting so angry?

Take a few years out if you can afford it op might take the pressure off. You’ve only got one life. It’s not irrevocable you can just go when they are older. The way the job market is at the moment they will bite your hand off. Majority of friends who took 2-5 years off all now back in decent job / careers.

The poster that had twins at 48 has blown my mind. That’s my age JFC!!!

Sorry, but playing the heartstring-tugging “you only get one mum” isn’t a debate, it’s a Clinton’s Cards sentiment that needs shutting down pronto so people can get back to the debate. Additionally you don’t see that post droning on about only getting one dad.

The level of anger and outrage from working mums on this thread and others similar shows to me that there's a nagging doubt deep inside. It seems odd to get heated up over someone else's views because they differ from yours so it must be something else at play.

One thing to also consider... When you are young(ish), you generally expect to be in good health, robust energy etc. Even for those who may not be in great health, youth (under 40) helps pull you through. As you grow older, things change. Energy levels dip, many of us are sandwiched between young children and ageing parents etc. I'm only saying this because I feel many of the posters who so fabulously combine full-time work with busy family lives (without nanny's or housekeepers) have health on their side. Things can change in an instant and not everyone has the same stamina. I could not even contemplate holding down a full-time job and looking after house/family and give the time and attention my child needs. Then there's ageing parents who need more help as time goes on. And a myriad of other responsibilities that I couldn't do if I were expected to be in paid work.

The poster is drowning. If she has a choice of staying home and spending time with her family, getting on top of household maintenance etc. then that should be encouraged. Plenty of time to return to work when all the children are in full-time education. It's just a different stage for her right now.

And let's not get so outraged by differing opinions. It's just silly and reflects quite poorly on those responders. We are all navigating life the best we can.

This is why it's impossible to have a good talk about this topic. People love throwing in curve balls as if that trumps all debate. No, it doesn't.

This will come as a surprise to lesbian couples with children.

But you can never replace a mother. You only ever have one.

The UK is seriously behind when it comes to childcare. We have spent billions educating women to then encourage women to stay home if they have children. It makes zero sense.

Maternity leave of 12 months is a career killer. I think 6 months of leave is a good amount for the typical birth. Personally I was working after 10 weeks but from home and on an ad hoc basis. Obviously some need longer and there should be provision for that. I also think one parent of a disabled child should be allowed to be ‘retired’ from working at the fully vested rate.

I’ve stayed in North America because I earn enough after taxes to cover all my expenses that come with 3 children. I can’t afford the privilege of working in the UK.

It is massively hard.

We both work from home and in the office, full time.

So we each do two days working at home and completely pick up the slack on those two days so the other can do the long days that are needed. This includes pick up and drop off, driving to soccer training, doing a load of washing and folding what is there, and prepping dinner. Then to make up for time list that person logs back on for two hours after dinner.

On the one day we are both in the city, I drop off, DH picks up from after school care, and I pick up a supermarket roast chicken on the way home.

We only cook meals that make good leftovers.

We have a fortnightly cleaner.

On the weekends we catch up on everything else.

Its still a shit fight.

Oh and I do carry of the mental load - about 70% I would say which is a constant source of irritation. Often it is due to the ingrained sexism from other parents. They NEVER add DH to the WhatsApp for Johnny’s birthday party, they NEVER text DH to see if he can also take Alice to soccer training. I’ve started sending short messages back “DH takes the kids every week. Please ask him”.

It can be so overwhelming. From your post I sense you are drowning in a sea of random shit that accumulates in a house with children. I would suggest you start ruthlessly clearing stuff out. I can imagine with their ages, you are probably always afraid to throw things out because it can be passed down and that makes it even worse.
It dawned on me one day that the stuff in the house was making me anxious and taking up so much headspace with sorting, organinsing etc. I starting throwing stuff out and giving it away. There is an app here where you can give stuff away for free and I use it enthusiastically! Just today I got rid of an old table cloth and old plates within an hour. I sneak all the random tat the children get into a bag and give it away when it accumulates. They never notice....so liberating. Things have a place and I don't have to think about it now and it gives me the gift of time!

I am a single parent and have no financial help or practical help. I have to just soldier on. Luckily I can WFH and this has made life much more manageable.

I would say through that;

everyone is different.

Some people work harder than others.

some people do things slower than others

some people are quite precious about child care and house work.

some people over parent and fuss a lot

Most SAHM I have met spend a lot of time organising things and doing extra curricular activities etc. I would rather channel that energy into paid employment but that is me.

Possibly just because its more unusual? I certainly think it’s great - stay at home parent, long term same person who genuinely loves them unconditionally stability that only a family member can give.

We have four children and have always worked full time (sometimes overseas). It is tiring, and standards have slipped a bit. for us, self-employment worked better as we could flex our hours more. We’ve never had to miss a sports day, concert, parents’ evening, etc. We’ve always done homework with the children, taken them to sports clubs, and encouraged their interests.

Standards in the house have slipped a bit - there is always washing around, but I’ve unclenched on that a bit.

This exactly