To think D of E is a massive swindle

I think tins would make it really heavy for the Gold, 4 days walking so they will be hungry so say a tin for lunch and one for dinner, that 8 tins on top of all their other stuff (tents and so on) water, snacks, breakfast stuff, toiletries and clothes, we were advised to think about the weight so advised tins and glass jars were best avoided.

Also carrying all the empties back would be a pain.

I think most people think it is a good thing. I certainly do.

Unfortunately the problem with all good things is they need constant policing in order to stop groups of less well meaning individuals seizing them and profiteering from them.

If there aren't people out there willing to demand that the costs are kept reasonable, you can bet your bottom dollar that there will be someone out there willing to exploit that apathy.

Trouble is, many Bronze D of E do it because they think they have to, or their parents sign them up as it's a "good thing".

This and then from that there are students taking DofE who aren't prepared or haven't appreciated what is required of them. I don't think the age limit should have been lowered because my experience is more issues once it opened to Year 9s, which makes sense as they're less mature and younger.

We never stipulated certain brand boil in the bag foods or set calorie requirements for a meal as everyone is different. We always did training sessions on how to cook on a stove, how to meal plan etc. We also talked about packing and storing food, the order to eat your food, what's good nutrition and not good nutrition for the activity being undertaken.

We were a very good and experienced team of volunteers. It took a lot of time to do that. I highly doubt external providers will do that because it would cost them in staffing.

"massive swindle"

I disagree

It provides youngsters an opportunity to try new things, meet new people & go to new places

To learn soft skills like team building, sharing, caring, humour, time keeping, helping others during volunteering & expeditions

It provides extra experiences to add onto CV or to application for; college, University or employment

https://expeditionfoods.com/collections/1000kcal-1

Although for one night I would take fresh stuffed pasta and a sauce, since it is quicker to prepare, and has the same lack of washing up, which is always a bonus.

Oh actually I got the above wrong. It was per 100g and they are 300g sachets. So they would probably be about equal to the pot noodle.

This monster, the pot noodle King Chinese Chowmein is 540 kcal.

I just went on the website and looked at the some of these "expedition food" main meals.

From what I saw not a single one was over 200 kcal. vs 450 kcal for the pot noodle, which is probably 1/5th of the price.

I'm not sure how people are supposed to get 1000 kcal per meal unless they are willing to spend stupid amounts of money.

DC would be paying me back every penny if they did what you DC has

I'd love to know what adults buy those special wayfarer things. Tins and pot noodles for us.

YANBU about the rucksack liner. I am a long-distance hiker - ie. 3-4 weeks at a time - been doing it fortwo decades now. I've never had a rucksack liner. Stuff goes into waterproof stuff sacks and ziploc bags but before I bought stuff sacks I just used to shove stuff in bin liners.

The wayfarer meals are essential - way better than pot noodles. 4.50 per meal is not that much to be honest. Pot noodles are not adequate for the main meal of the day. I do sometimes take instant noodles with me but they are only for a top up at lunch time - find them easy to digest and not too filling which is not what you need when you need to keep hiking - ie. a stomach full of stodge is unhelpful! But you really do need a decent meal in the evening to help you sleep and to give you enough nutrition for the next day.
I used to try to avoid the expensive trekking meals (the ones I can get in the country where I live are around €11 each) but actually they are worth it. It's a completely different feeling eating one of those compared to some kind of packet pasta which was my previous go-to.

But I do agree with you - there are a lot of companies making a lot of money out of D of E kids. The only solution really is for schools either to have all the equipment which can be borrowed (not hired at an exorbitant cost) or for parents to pass stuff on/sell cheaply to others when their children are finished with them

@GasPanic Trouble is, many Bronze D of E do it because they think they have to, or their parents sign them up as it's a "good thing".

There then needs to be a degree of thought and effort from the participant as to what to take and how to cook it - I imagine wayfair meals fall into a "not too expensive, fit the bill" category for kids who don't want to think....Taking a single pot noodle in the pot won't fit the bill for calories or space, you are talking about being sensible, and that's some 13/14 yo's and not others!

Mine certainly weren't told to just take wayfair meals, but they were shown them as an example of things they could take - along with meals they could make, and alternatives including how to make their own "ready to eat" cereal, by mixing powder milk with porridge and powder milk with muesli (just add hot or cold water) etc.

Pot noodles are 450 kcals per pot. They literally are freeze dried meals. Just not hyper expensive ones. If you don't like the bulk, you can take them out and put them in plastic bags (although I have always found that the mass is the key issue when you are walking for miles, not the size).

What the focus should be on is whether the meal has the nutritional requirements, not whether it fits in someone food snobs arbitrary definition of "junk" food. If the meal has the correct protein, fat etc then it doesn't matter whether it comes from a pot noodle and a mars bar or some hyper expensive expedition food.

I think what's important is for the participant to learn about nutrition and they do that by checking the RDA amounts for the food they are carrying and making sure it meets the requirements, not bailing out by buying expensive expedition food and therefore not having to do any of that because they know it's covered. There is no science or learning in the arbitrary banning of certain food types just because someone has randomly deemed it unacceptable.

I suppose what it does do is teach kids about captive markets, price gourging and rip offs. D of E should be egalitarian in my opinion. To me kids shouldn't be excluded because they can't afford £4.50 expedition meals pushed on them by money making commericial organisers.

I do have some sympathy for the amounts commercial organisers may have to charge, because of insurance considerations. But that sympathy doesn't extend to them being able to charge for or demand expensive expedition food.

It’s a very interesting point about difference in cost between volunteer run and commercial. People generally don’t appreciate how much of difference volunteers make until it’s gone.
Especially with school staff I can see why desire to work for free isn’t there for no thanks and probably lots of parental hassle (who isn’t Jane in her friends tent, why didn’t you tell John to put suncream on, Katie’s lost her designer coat..was it labelled no)
In the past I think there was more understanding.
I do think we need to be more explicit. Cost is x but we can offer for y as we have 3 volunteers staffing event for free.
I’m a Guide leader not a teacher.
I’m paying to go on guide holiday next year - using a days annual leave, 3 days in charge of kids as unpaid volunteer and paying in full. I obviously don’t need to (but if I don’t the girls can’t go) and am going as it’s my hobby and I enjoy it but I can see why there’s a massive shortage of volunteers!

I'm aghast to hear that you have trainers and supervisors and kit requirements. I genuinely thought the whole point was to get kids being responsible for themselves once in their lifetime. I remember being 10 year olds and logging a tent on my own into a farmers field for a weekend a couple of miles from our home. It was tradition in our area for children as young as 6 to sleep wild over the pentecost weekend in the fields and woods surrounding our villages. Masses of sweets and crisps were compulsory and no parents allowed.

It's ridiculous that there's a restriction to one brand of food! Hardly a skill to traipse into a shop and invoke the god of money 'dearly gullible, let us pay'

1. Cost - self explanatory, if you have no volunteers for supervising, there is a cost for "paid" supervisors.

2. They are advised to have 1000-1200 kcal for an evening meal...this can be made up however the team like, but freeze dried meals are best as they are light and small. Wayfair meals are heavier but cheaper. Pot noodles are only about 300cal, and have lots of air in them so are not advised as it is difficult/awkward to carry enough to make a 1000cal meal.

The advice is to carry stuff like dried meats, trail mix (check for nut allergies), wraps, flapjacks, sweets, dried fruit, crackers, biscuits, for snacks and lunch then they can choose to make an evening meal - pasta and stir in sauce is popular, or a freeze dried pack. That is down to your child's team.... Mine have done a combination of both cooking and freeze dried on the expeditions they have gone on.

One of mine took muesli with dried milk that he just added water to for breakfast.
They sometimes take hot chocolate (just add water type)....

You need to encourage your child to meet with their team and discuss the cooking and who is bringing what. Last walk (Gold) mine did he took 6 portions of pasta and someone else took the sauce for one night food. Two more did the same for the 2nd night, and two others took noodles and sauce for the 3rd night, they each took a freeze dried/wayfair meal for the 4th night...

I think it’s the school not the scheme. My children’s school had the camping equipment, they just provided a list of items and told you what was and wasn’t essential. There was no specification on food, or ruck sack linings. We got essentials such as a plate/cup from asda rather than a camping shop - picnic stuff. And if you buy for the bronze, keep the equipment for the silver/gold and then sell.

As has been said repeatedly, the reason some people get a “cheap” DOfE experience is because of volunteers. Scout / Guide / cadet leaders are already volunteers, so they ‘just’ volunteer a bit more to provide the DOfE experience. They are amazing.

Schools also rely on volunteers to help keep the cost down, and when they can’t get them (more and more frequently) they have to outsource. I have worked as a (paid) freelance DOfE person with bronze practice groups - which does trouble me on a moral basis because I agree that the move to external providers is pricing kids out and I feel it is against the ethos, however, if these providers didn’t exist then DOfE would not be offered in many schools.

From a cost point of view, 1 member of staff per group of 4-7, walking and training with them for 6 hours, a couple of hours at camp supervising tent putting up and cooking, overnight pastoral care - £210 for 24 hours is what I’d get paid. Do that again on the actual expedition and possibly a training day at school beforehand and the labour costs alone are looking at £100-£150 a participant. And then yes, of course, the provider wants to make a profit (they are a business) but also they need to buy and maintain tents, stoves, etc - I’m not sure any of them are making a “big fat profit”.

I also volunteer on the DOfE programme at the school I work at because I think it’s awesome and extremely worthwhile. Volunteers are fed and watered and looked after - the costs of which will be spread amongst the participants but will still be significantly lower than using an AAP - and we have a good laugh. Our biggest costs are transport, which are ridiculous.

I know I’ve not added anything new, but there’s a reason some schools charge £250 and it’s because they want to give kids the opportunity to do DOfE but can’t / won’t staff it internally. If you think it’s too expensive, don’t sign up and if everyone feels the same the school will stop running it. That means the teacher who was probably stitched up to run it will be able to breath, and it will be a lot less hassle all round.

@LolaSmiles But the average wayfarer meal has about 400 calories. Some as little as 300. I really don't understand why these are acceptable while pot noodles (same if not more calories, lighter weight, and cheaper) are not?

is all this kit just for one night outdoors? One night? Maybe the Duke of Edinburgh….which ever inbred holds the ridiculous title these days….should pay for these kids’ equipment & posh pot noodles!

Hello,
I’m both a teacher and a Gude leader.
daughter did DoE thorough Guiding, and relatively cheap as only costs food, travel and campsite.
Son did DoE thorough school, with expeditions through external provided. For silver you are looking at 3 weekends, so each weekend 48 hours of time needed for paid assessors. Even paying only minimum wage, with ratios needed, this is a huge staffing bill. This is why the cost of external DofE is so expensive.
when Guiders/Scouters/ teachers run it they are volunteers so no payment is given to the staff time.
Teachers running clubs out of school, and those other volunteers (guide/
scout leaders, football coaches, church youth group leaders etc) are getting fewer and fewer and less appreciated by both parents and children. Please value your volunteers…..

Do it with Scouts or Army Cadets. We paid £20 to register and most of the kit is supplied, then it’s just food and travel for the expedition. Plus with these organisations you get much more experienced leaders and better expeditions

I wouldn’t expect all that to be included, presumably that’s just for running costs.

Some things requested here seem to be based on local decisions tho and not necessarily universal.

I paid £13.50

It isn't just the OP's school, it is really common now.
Teachers no longer have the time or energy to run it, so companies have popped up to step in.
Those companies need to pay their staff.
That is the HUGE difference between prices - if you are having to pay people wages, then that is where the money goes.