Trans etc at school / all going too far?

And the information is incomplete and not always clearly or fairly presented. Some information simply doesn't exist and is an unknown, and some of what does exist is ignored.

Indeed.

And there is very little properly set up peer-reviewed research.

Possibly because there are some emerging trends in the research which IS actually published (avoiding academic cancellation) which suggest that the outcomes for medical transition are not uniformly good. That there are still high level of depression, that gender dysphoria isn’t necessarily resolved, and that social indicators such as employment and ability to sustain personal relationships are not good.

This

Do you think people who transition are stupid?

Not innately, no. Many are above avergae IQ. But wishful thinking leads to poor decision making.

Do you think they haven’t researched the surgery?

Some more than others. And the information is incomplete and not always clearly or fairly presented. Some information simply doesn't exist and is an unknown, and some of what does exist is ignored.

We know that when people make a decision that means a lot to them they usually minimise the potential downsides. We also know that people are poor at making balanced risk assessments unless they train and practice hard. And thirdly we know that most people prioritise a short-term satisfaction over long term danger (e.g. smoking) And we know children and teenagers are the worst for this.

To me, that tells me just how distressed someone is by their gender identity not matching their physical body, that they will accept that risk as an improvement.

Well yes, you and a lot of gender clinicians, to their patients' detriment. Clinicians should not be using the same short term thinking as their patients. But too many gender clinicians do seem to reason that the downsides will never happen, or that the patient will still feel the same when the downsides actually do happen, or they don't expect their patients to be happy in the long term anyway.

So you’re essentially saying ‘be you, but we won’t accept who you say you are’… and you wonder why people don’t want to accept that?

Of course people don't want to accept that other people wont take them at face value, that they can't just say who they are and have everyone go along with it. Accepting that you can't be who you want to be is hard, whatever the reason. Broke my heart that I was never going to be Miss World. That's part of growing up. You can't be Peter Pan forever.

Puberty is hard but we survive it. And there are better ways to support girls with autism through puberty than trying to let them out of it altogether. It makes the fear and trauma worse if you tell girls they shouldn't be going through it.

I think you’ll find that outside the mn microcosm there are many people who disagree with you.

Being in a minority doesn't automatically make one wrong. Does it?

Imagine a community that supposedly cares so much about girls and women that celebrates the use of the term ‘bonus hole’ instead of vagina.

Supposedly, this community is about teaching people to love themselves for who they are. Yet, expressed not one shred of concern over the self hatred of using the term ‘bonus hole’!

How long before we see this self hatred, pornified term being mentioned in documents aimed at children?

Affirming only seems to mean affirming the use of these terms by female people who hate their body, thus affirming that hatred and not doing enough to treat the cause of why that might be. Just assuming that it is dysphoria at the heart of the self hatred. Which this term reinforces.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4838405-bonus-hole?page=1

I do feel like a lot of people who object to the term cis- react as though it is a disparaging nickname that has just been invented for them

Which I guess would be understandable if it was, but it's actually just a slightly nerdy prefix that means "not trans

No. it is short for ‘cisgender’ which means you have decided that person has a gender identity and that it matches their sexed body. Many women completely reject that idea. There is very little of the standard femininity that I relate to and was often called a tomboy as a girl. I have gone through times of hating my body as well as being ok with it. This is a very common experience for girls and women. For someone else to come along and put a gender identity on us because we are not trans is intrusive. The need to label us in relation to trans people is so strong there are videos all over Tik Tok called, “not cis? Congratulations you are trans!” As if our very existence is only relative to trans people.

We are not ‘non trans’ or ‘non men’ or ‘cisgendered’ and you do not know our ‘gender identity’ when we say we are women because most of us talk in terms of biology and would never speak of our internal feelings of ourselves in such naval gazing, self indulgent ways.

We are not a subset of our own sex class and when tran activist’s tell us, “cis not a slur, it’s just what you are” for some reason they don’t like the response, “Man is not a slur, it’s just what you are.”

Read the Cass review, apologies it's already been mentioned.

I expect they all did.

Yes it's about normalising breast (chest feeding) for trans men.

But the whole point is that it is changing the language normalising people other than the mother/ woman feeding the baby.

Hence why it is so hard to call out a man who is using a baby as prop for his fetish.

Chestfeeding is not an urban myth.

It is used in the name of trans inclusivity.

The NHS has a page on it. https://www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/having-a-baby-if-you-are-lgbt-plus/chestfeeding-if-youre-trans-or-non-binary/

But the aim is to dehumanise women from the process and to normalise the idea of trans women (men with a fetish) to feed chemicals to babies via their chest.

Thing is, mammals (including humans) can't change sex.

Moreover, there is no such thing as gender identity (see, e.g. Alex Byrne (Philosophy Professor, MIT), 'What Is Gender Identity? - The elusive true gender self': "... If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence ...".)

Given which, it would appear there are no trans children at school or anywhere else, not in truth.

Of course there are some who say they have changed sex, and some who say they have a gender identity. (Children make mistakes ... and, even, I have known one or two who told fibs, believe it or not.) How should we treat such children? Possibly in the same way we treat those who say they are cats and so on? - With sympathy (always!), but also with appropriate humour and common sense. Hmm?

How do we treat thin children who think they are fat and so want to avoid food? Perhaps there's a moral in that for how we should treat girl children who think they are boys and so want to avoid puberty: try to help them, best we can. (But not, 'help them avoid food' or 'help them avoid puberty', of course ... That would be awful, wouldn't it?)

(Of course waters might be muddied by the legal fiction of Gender Recognition Certificates. But that determinedly does not apply to children. So leave that be for now. For children, matters are clear.)

As far as children are concerned, it's well past time to consign all the trans rubbish to where it belongs: in the bin.

Once again, there are no trans children, in or out of school. Thinking you are doesn't make it so. (Which, again, is diametrically opposed to being gay: thinking you are attracted to your own sex just is being so attracted, so thinking you are gay does make it so. Parse this how you like, 'LGB' just doesn't match with 'T'. Not at all. Not in the least.)

Tldr: If a trans child is one who has changed sex or one whose gender identity is such-and-such, (doesn't match, blah, whatever ...), then there are no trans children. None.

Nothing offensive at all in forceably redefining the words women use to describe themselves so they have to attach a fucking ‘just nerdy’ false prefix to their descriptors.

Nothing fucking offensive at all. Just science, innit?

(Said while those who completely fucking deny science force women to accept they are now a subset of their own sex category). I am sure people lack to capacity to think this through critically.

I do feel like a lot of people who object to the term cis- react as though it is a disparaging nickname that has just been invented for them.

Think of any other non-chosen identity characteristic - e.g. black, Chinese, 6 year-old. Then imagine that there are adults who 'identify as' and therefore claim to belong to the group that has that characteristic even though they are in fact in no way whatsoever black, Chinese or 6 years old. Then imagine announcing that henceforth anyone who genuinely belongs to one of those groups is to be called cis-Chinese etc. Not at all offensive of course. Just a logical, benign way of describing people who are non- trans-Chinese.

How would you define "woman" then, if you can subcategorise it into trans women and cis women?
Would it be possible for a cis woman to identify as a trans woman?

It is great that the LGB kids have somewhere to discuss coming out or dating issues but the TQ element seems to be causing a really worrying amount of social contagion. With girl, after girl changing identity - the ones that change first and loudest usually come from very conservative backgrounds where being gay is not acceptable.

The acceptability plays a part in this. If you come from a family that doesn't accept anything other than heterosexuality and you come out as gay, there's not going to be a particularly large amount of support or protection for you, ironically because in wider society being gay is largely accepted.

But if you come out as trans, there'll be a hell of a lot more support and protection, so it will be harder for your family to reject your identity and therefore in that respect it's "safer" to be trans than gay.

What a ridiculous analogy. So you are saying women and tw are both women and women must be relegated to cis women. Plus cis means you identify with feminine stereotypes which is offensive and regressive.

It’s really sad that some people drag asexuals (actual asexuals) in to these conversations.
Okey, so your daughter needed time or whatever, but some people really are asexuals and no time will change that and it doesn’t mean that these people aren’t mature.

I’m just saying this so that in future you/other’s won’t make this mistake / hurt asexuals 😊

My son is year 9. He said the same. Especially girls. It baffles him.

You stated "Cis isn't offensive".

That's unilaterally declaring that to be the case, and you were and are wrong.

FatGirlSwim, how are the large numbers of people 'detransitioning' explained, and the numbers of children quietly deciding maybe they're actually not 'in the wrong body' after all?

*We are definitely at an impasse, as your views are abhorrent to me.

I think you’ll find that outside the mn microcosm there are many people who disagree with you.*

I know you will find that nearly everybody has a line in the sand. Be it male people in womens sports, male rapists in womens prisons, dismantling women focused healthcare or even male people in womens toilets, hardly anybody is as radical in denying the existence of the two human sexes from society as you and other transactivists. You are the minority in your beliefs.

We are definitely at an impasse, as your views are abhorrent to me.

I think you’ll find that outside the mn microcosm there are many people who disagree with you.

This, I don’t believe for a second. I am a lesbian, as is dd, and it’s a complete non issue. Whereas being trans gives rise to so much hate and oppression as can be seen on this thread.

So many trans people are gay post-transition that this argument doesn’t make sense at all. And is it supposed to be the same for gay males?

I think the whole trans movement is very much a middle class issue. In my son's, very working class, high school there's hardly any trans kids. In my nephews private high school they're all trans, liberal lefties kids in other words. Just my theory. Maybe a teacher can come along and put me right.