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Alfie Steele

313 replies

Ffswhatsthepoint · 13/06/2023 23:20

I checked there was no other thread before I posted this one. Alfie, 9, killed by mum and her bf. Drowned. A catalogue of abuse and many phone calls to police/ss by neighbours. The neighbours often fed him too. We HAVE to find people accountable in this case. It was reported. People knew. Nothing was done. Absolutely nothing. Its harrowing. I feel like I failed him. And I'm hundreds of miles away.

OP posts:
WilkinsonM · 17/06/2023 15:04

Betsybetty · 17/06/2023 14:50

I know sw try, and try and try, and we appreciate that. I was just referring to your post, which simply said with one sentence, we can't save everyone. That sounds like closing a debate, sounds dismissive. Sorry can't save, doing my best. I know you're under pressure, but you need to verbalise the pressure and we as a society need to get to the bottom of this and try to save every single one. Surely you'd agree....

We need to do better as a society, and that includes social workers but it also includes the government funding services properly and addressing poverty, the housing crisis etc...it's a huge undertaking and the whole social system needs to do better.

jenandberrys · 17/06/2023 15:03

Betsybetty · 17/06/2023 14:50

I know sw try, and try and try, and we appreciate that. I was just referring to your post, which simply said with one sentence, we can't save everyone. That sounds like closing a debate, sounds dismissive. Sorry can't save, doing my best. I know you're under pressure, but you need to verbalise the pressure and we as a society need to get to the bottom of this and try to save every single one. Surely you'd agree....

You have absolutely no grip on reality if you think that it would be remotely reasonable to expect social care to prevent every child death.

jenandberrys · 17/06/2023 15:02

WilkinsonM · 17/06/2023 14:40

OMG!!!
I've been a social worker for 15 years. I try and succeed every single day! Of course we try. But calls to eradicate every single child death are impossible: that's just a fact.

There are so many public sector roles now where you aren't actually helping make things better for people which is likely what you would hope to be doing in CP or SEN or the NHS, all you are managing to do is slow down the rate of things getting worse. It is truly dispiriting and why so many professionals are leaving.

jenandberrys · 17/06/2023 15:00

LakieLady · 15/06/2023 23:16

Well said, @Gettybetty .

This, a million times over.

Betsybetty · 17/06/2023 14:50

I know sw try, and try and try, and we appreciate that. I was just referring to your post, which simply said with one sentence, we can't save everyone. That sounds like closing a debate, sounds dismissive. Sorry can't save, doing my best. I know you're under pressure, but you need to verbalise the pressure and we as a society need to get to the bottom of this and try to save every single one. Surely you'd agree....

WilkinsonM · 17/06/2023 14:40

Betsybetty · 17/06/2023 14:31

This sounds so compliant and non chalance. Shouldn't we at least try?

OMG!!!
I've been a social worker for 15 years. I try and succeed every single day! Of course we try. But calls to eradicate every single child death are impossible: that's just a fact.

Betsybetty · 17/06/2023 14:31

WilkinsonM · 16/06/2023 12:18

It's not possible to prevent all child deaths. Sadly.

This sounds so compliant and non chalance. Shouldn't we at least try?

EmpressSoleil · 17/06/2023 11:48

I used to be a probation officer. It was the same thing there. No one saw the literally thousands of people myself and my colleagues helped turn their lives around. Thus preventing further crimes. The public only ever heard about probation when something went seriously wrong. It's quite soul destroying.

When I left it was the same issue with ridiculously high caseloads and just simply not enough hours in the day. I was contracted to 37 hours. I would have needed at least double that to even attempt to keep on top of things. Even if I had the energy for that you don't get paid for any additional hours you do and the base pay isn't great for all the stress involved. I knew then and now that social services had the same issues. i certainly wouldnt want to be a social worker.

I can tell you one simple thing that wouldn't necessarily solve all the problems but would go a long way to helping. Much larger and well organised administrative teams. Free up these professionals from all of the admin work that takes up far too much of their time and could be done by support staff. Thus freeing more hours up for them to do the important work. By the end of my time as a probation officer I was spending 10% of my time with people 90% on paperwork. Most of which could have been massively speeded up by having more admin and something like dictation software. Many of the reports etc that would take me hours, large swathes of that could have been filled in by an admin worker in advance. But they wanted to save money by getting rid of the majority of our admin 🙄

dottypotter · 17/06/2023 11:05

So they get their protection in prison.
The social workers get their protection. They get to keep their jobs. We don't know who they are.

Where was the child's protection?He lived in fear everyday of 2 horrible sick creatures and nobody protected him.

System needs an overhaul and jail dosent seem to be a deterrent anymore.
The boyfriend has already spend years in prison, obvs it's not a deterrent.

A

andHelenknowsimmiserablenow · 16/06/2023 15:41

Itisalwayspossibletobekind · 16/06/2023 12:35

@Jellycatspyjamas @WilkinsonM

Thank you for your replies. And all that you are taking the time to outline.

I think I phrased my question badly.

I think I know what you're both saying, along the same lines that it is actually impossible to prevent all "never incidents" (ie ones that should never ever have happened) in medical care for instance.

But in Alfie's case, where 999 calls were being made during the grotesque torture and abuse being done to him - I mean, at the very time it was actually taking place - how did he actually get left in that house??

How did we fail Alfie so much that Police were called via 999, Police attended, Police knew about that evil man already, Police being the only ones that could actually have taken him immediately away (albeit for 72hrs initially) - and yet Alfie still did not get taken to safety?

That is something I cannot understand. HOW can the police call at a house just after that assault and let Alfie remain there, or not arrest or remove Howell and take him away for questioning? Surely that evil pair couldn't have been that convincing so soon after torturing a 9 year old. They should have looked into who Howell was and why he was at the house. Its horrific to think of children being let down so badly.

Hopedun · 16/06/2023 12:41

My mam was brought up with an abusive, violent, miser as a father. He beat the youngest child out of my granny when she was 6 months pregnant and that was the finish for her. She went against her strong Catholic faith and he was sent to prison. I think the prison sentence was very rare then as violence towards your wife in the 50s was quite normal. The police were called dozens of times in the past but only when he killed an unborn child were they interested.

My granny brought her surviving 3 children up alone and never allowed another man into her life until the day she died. She still lived a happy life and children and grandchildren were everything. She would never allow raised voices around us grandchildren, we were cherished.

My mam married three times by the time I was 11. Looking back, I would say that was not an ideal childhood. Luckily my two stepfathers are lovely, kind men. I am largely unscathed from my early years.

Maybe the difference was my mam got herself a well paid profession before she married so she never needed to stick around with a man when she didn't have to.

I have broken the cycle. My own husband is an amazing dad and husband. I never wanted the same for my kids as the two generations before.

I see women through my work who literally go from one shit relationship to another dragging their kids behind them. I have to say that since the 2 child limit came in for UC, I have seen fewer women forced to go on and have more than 2 children (it used to sometimes be seen as a way for the man to get more money from the system). A few have told me they will be having an abortion when I tell them they won't receive more UC for a third child.

Itisalwayspossibletobekind · 16/06/2023 12:35

@Jellycatspyjamas @WilkinsonM

Thank you for your replies. And all that you are taking the time to outline.

I think I phrased my question badly.

I think I know what you're both saying, along the same lines that it is actually impossible to prevent all "never incidents" (ie ones that should never ever have happened) in medical care for instance.

But in Alfie's case, where 999 calls were being made during the grotesque torture and abuse being done to him - I mean, at the very time it was actually taking place - how did he actually get left in that house??

How did we fail Alfie so much that Police were called via 999, Police attended, Police knew about that evil man already, Police being the only ones that could actually have taken him immediately away (albeit for 72hrs initially) - and yet Alfie still did not get taken to safety?

WilkinsonM · 16/06/2023 12:18

Itisalwayspossibletobekind · 16/06/2023 09:33

From what I have understood, this was not the only 999 call made about Alfie.

I appreciate that - just like with social workers - we do not routinely hear about the thousands of times Police remove children in immediate danger, nor fully appreciate the horrors of their jobs/situations they encounter.

But given the repeated 999 calls and all the concerns raised, it's incomprehensible to see why Alfie wasn't immediately removed and protected.

And are there neighbours today making 999 calls about kids who are being tortured, only for them to be left at home too?

What needs to be done immediately to stop this completely?

It's not possible to prevent all child deaths. Sadly.

Jellycatspyjamas · 16/06/2023 11:48

What needs to be done immediately to stop this completely?

Honestly? I don’t think it can be stopped completely. In the same way as we can’t stop murder completely, or rape, or domestic violence. We don’t have the gift to see the future, and measures that would aim for complete cessation of any of those crimes would also see innocent people impacted because we’d get it wrong.

Risk assessment is a complex balance of determining the likelihood of harm against the severity of that potential harm and it’s far from an exact science. The most immediate thing that could prevent children being killed by parents and carers would be to resource public services properly ie social work, education, police, health, CAMHS, family support services but no one wants to foot that bill. And even fully resources there will always be people who will kill their children and go to extreme lengths to hide that intention.

Itisalwayspossibletobekind · 16/06/2023 09:33

Jellycatspyjamas · 15/06/2023 20:57

I get that there is huge deception and cover up, but if a Police Officer arrived at a crime scene and found an adult who had just been subjected to the above torture, surely they would be able to ascertain that something was horrifically, hideously wrong?

I imagine the police response to that call will be central to the learning review - I too am interested to know what happened there.

From what I have understood, this was not the only 999 call made about Alfie.

I appreciate that - just like with social workers - we do not routinely hear about the thousands of times Police remove children in immediate danger, nor fully appreciate the horrors of their jobs/situations they encounter.

But given the repeated 999 calls and all the concerns raised, it's incomprehensible to see why Alfie wasn't immediately removed and protected.

And are there neighbours today making 999 calls about kids who are being tortured, only for them to be left at home too?

What needs to be done immediately to stop this completely?

Seymour5 · 16/06/2023 07:00

WilkinsonM · 15/06/2023 22:24

65 children a year are killed by parents/carers. Do you know how many children pass through social services every year? There are hundreds of thousands and out of those hundreds or thousands would certainly have died if not removed or some other intervention. You have no idea at all what social workers are doing daily to keep children safe.

Of course people have no idea, aren’t interested, don’t really care. But some, as we’ve seen here, are still experts in how social workers fail. No matter how much the reality of working in Children and Families social work is explained, they know better.

weareallout · 15/06/2023 23:20

Unless you work in public services or gov departments I don't think people really realise the caseloads. As someone else said - these are parents / people who lie & cover up stuff. Even if we 'know' issues are there, we can't do anything unless evidence is there for court. And 100+ kids and no time to help them

LakieLady · 15/06/2023 23:16

Gettybetty · 14/06/2023 11:46

Yes. But when they've brought up in violent homes and it's all they've known and been modelled as how adult relationships work, it's as difficult as it is to educate the girls who grew up in violent homes.

And working with a number of young people who grew up in violent homes and are now replicating that in their early relationships; there's a really difficult balance to be found between educating a domestically violent 15/16/17 year old who is still legally a child and often in LAC or in a shitty abusive home that it is not at all acceptable that he behaves this way while also treating him as the traumatised child he is.

There are no specific psychoeducation programmes in my area for perpetrators of domestic/relationship violence under the age of 18. Because they're still children and should be treated as victims of their own trauma rather than perpetrators.

So everyone's stuck in trying to help them in a meaningful way. And once they turn 18 most of the support from agencies falls away. And when they're late teens and early 20s and beyond and still perpetrators of domestic violence, no-one in society really gives a shit anymore that they witnessed their Mum being beaten or raped. They're adults now and should know better.

And as dramatic as it sounds, its really possible that Alfie would have gone on to be an adult man like that, had he lived, given the household he was living in.

But when you are tragically murdered by abusive parents aged 9, everyone falls over themselves to weep about it.

But more boys like Alfie don't get murdered and in 10+ years are the adults like his 'Step'-Dad who murdered him. And then no-one gives a shit and says he was just an evil bastard.

And it goes round and round and round.

And there are always girls and women who come from equally dysfunctional and abusive backgrounds wanting to be in relationships with dysfunctional and abusive men. Because that's what they know to be how relationships work.

Well said, @Gettybetty .

LakieLady · 15/06/2023 22:38

weareallout · 14/06/2023 00:01

All services have now been cut almost to non existence. I'm in a government Dept where there is 1/3 the workforce there was ten years ago & more work. Police, SS, CAMHS etc all in same position. Massive case loads that we can't ever clear. We can't get to all urgent work as too much of it. Non urgent just actually never gets sorted

I know two people who worked in child protection and have left in the last year because of the pressure.

They had massive caseloads because of understaffing and were constantly stressed and panicking as they couldn't monitor all their cases to a level and extent that they considered safe. They found they couldn't sleep for worrying that they couldn't protect children because they had too many cases to deal with. They were both totally burnt out.

One also told me that at her LA, there was a shortage of solicitors to prepare cases for court.

WilkinsonM · 15/06/2023 22:24

girlfriend44 · 15/06/2023 22:19

It's abit more than one mistake it's all the time now.

65 children a year are killed by parents/carers. Do you know how many children pass through social services every year? There are hundreds of thousands and out of those hundreds or thousands would certainly have died if not removed or some other intervention. You have no idea at all what social workers are doing daily to keep children safe.

girlfriend44 · 15/06/2023 22:19

potniatheron · 15/06/2023 17:47

The comments on here blaming social workers are naive. You only see the ones missed. You have no idea how many children are rescued. A social worker could have a career and save hundreds of children, one gets missed and they are called incompetent.

Exactly this. It's like with medicine. A heart surgeon could save hundreds of lives but she'll only be in the papers the one time she makes a mistake.

It's abit more than one mistake it's all the time now.

girlfriend44 · 15/06/2023 22:15

BerriesPineCones · 14/06/2023 00:11

ALL public services are run into the ground under this government. People are dying waiting for ambulances. State schools are in a mess/teacher shortages. Mental health services are dire. Jailing social workers/ paramedics/ teachers won't help. You need to look at who's running the country.
Doubtless I'll now be inundated with people saying the government are doing a marvellous job and it's just those lazy social workers/paramedics etc

Don't forget the nhs dentistry is in crisis too.

We are going the wrong way. Everything is going down the pan

BeatrizViter · 15/06/2023 22:08

Why is it only social workers are expected to be able to identify in advance every case where a child might be harmed and remove them, when police are not expected to identify every murderer in advance and arrest them? Because it is understood that police are working to a legal threshold and need proof rather than being worried and suspicious. Just like social workers need a legal threshold of proof before taking any non voluntary action. And unfortunately calls from neighbours on hearsay evidence count for very little, families often say its malicious and the child may be interviewed and not substantiate concerns for many reasons. And I doubt society is ready for removing peoples children based on unsubstantiated non-professional accounts. So maybe...start holding the actual perpetrators responsible and stop putting people off ever being a social worker with trashing every single one of them.

girlfriend44 · 15/06/2023 21:57

It's disgusting, there were so many y complaints about this couple. Apparantely they were nicknamed the ferals.

The partner wasn't supposed to be o ernight at the house ut nobody checked there is so much incompetence around.
Sick of hearing these scummy stories.

It's all the time now. How can you be so cruel.
Aren't they embarrassed to be such disgusting human beings?

Do they really believe the jury will believe their pathetic lies?

LifeIsPainHighness · 15/06/2023 21:44

And then other posters would pile on egging the OP’s on about how terrible that is and how the same happened to them.

Some even claimed their children were removed for ‘absolutely no reason at all’

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