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Original poster

We need to start talking about population decline

792 replies

user4567890754 · 02/06/2023 22:15

The first signs of it are starting to show in the UK, with primary school closures. Secondary school closures will follow.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/11158f12-0133-11ee-a364-04e704863f75?shareToken=5ef47b2b4776be376153089146c8bacf

Italy is a few years ahead of us.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/01/plunging-birthrate-threatens-italian-schools

Japan shows where every country is headed - towards a crisis where they are on the brink of being unable to maintain social functions.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/13/asia/japan-population-decline-record-drop-intl-hnk/index.html

And yet there are still people who think that we have a problem with overpopulation. It’s the opposite.

The school with one pupil: how falling birthrates are killing village primaries

Four generations of Ruby Booker’s family have been educated at Skelton Newby Hall, an idyllic village primary school in North Yorkshire.It was the autumn of 194

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/11158f12-0133-11ee-a364-04e704863f75?shareToken=5ef47b2b4776be376153089146c8bacf

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mtrite · 17/03/2024 00:01

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Naominumbers · 29/08/2023 11:52

Overall, I think declining population is a positive thing. We'll have a few difficult years to adapt but 8 billion people is far too many. People used to have large families to look after them in old age but in Europe no one needs to do that anymore. Four at the most is a reasonable amount of kids for a family. I think it's great that people are becoming more choosy about how many children they will have.

Original poster
user4567890754 · 29/08/2023 11:43

PumpkinPie2016 · 15/08/2023 12:42

While the birth rate, on average, is falling and affecting some things, such as the school you mention, I don't think it's widespread.

I live and work in a town in the North West. It is very culturally diverse and this has become more so, even since I was a child (I'm 36 now). We have a large white British and a large Asian population in the town. In recent years, we have also seen an increase in the number of African families settling in the area.

One child I teach for instance, migrated from Nigeria only 2 years ago.

Obviously among all of these people there are varying numbers of children - anything from 1 to 7/8/9.

So, for towns like ours, the population isn't declining, whereas in other areas it may be.

So far the UK is managing to plug the gap with immigration. I looked up the figures and Scotland’s natural population is already declining. Has been since 2015. England and Wales will follow in the next couple of years.

One problem with immigration is that in one generation, immigrant families reduce their fertility rates to match the native population, so it doesn’t help to increase birth rates long term.

OP posts:
Tots678 · 24/08/2023 19:00

Treatment to refuse antibiotics, rescussitation.

Luckydip1 · 24/08/2023 18:53

Tots678 · 24/08/2023 14:44

No, the people who want to die could commit suicide or have not had ‘the conversation’ and decided what their treatment should be if they lose capacity.

Everyone wants to live if they still have capacity /and can’t do anything about it once they havent .

To blame the Gov is hilarious -when T May promoted a payment for care in old age she lost many previously safe Tory seats - it was called the dementia tax , labour was against it too as I remember. Maybe the voters thought they were signing up a way of being guaranteed dementia 😂 it’s us that’s to blame no one else.

What treatment would that be, if it's not euthanasia.

Tots678 · 24/08/2023 14:44

No, the people who want to die could commit suicide or have not had ‘the conversation’ and decided what their treatment should be if they lose capacity.

Everyone wants to live if they still have capacity /and can’t do anything about it once they havent .

To blame the Gov is hilarious -when T May promoted a payment for care in old age she lost many previously safe Tory seats - it was called the dementia tax , labour was against it too as I remember. Maybe the voters thought they were signing up a way of being guaranteed dementia 😂 it’s us that’s to blame no one else.

Luckydip1 · 24/08/2023 13:34

WhatNoRaisins · 15/08/2023 13:13

I'm not comfortable with euthanasia but I don't see how the current situation with people being kept alive in poor health can continue. We are already struggling to get enough carers for the current population who need them and it's just going to get bigger with a smaller pool of workers to recruit from.

Maybe more people will be looked after by relatives but I'm not a fan of romanticising cultures who are more likely to do that. People are people and there's bound to be abuse and neglect. Not to mention most of the time it's women doing all the caring.

Maybe AI and drug treatments for dementia will help. I can't see any government wanting to talk about this though.

Exactly, the government is keeping a lot of people alive who would rather be dead...

WhatNoRaisins · 15/08/2023 13:13

I'm not comfortable with euthanasia but I don't see how the current situation with people being kept alive in poor health can continue. We are already struggling to get enough carers for the current population who need them and it's just going to get bigger with a smaller pool of workers to recruit from.

Maybe more people will be looked after by relatives but I'm not a fan of romanticising cultures who are more likely to do that. People are people and there's bound to be abuse and neglect. Not to mention most of the time it's women doing all the caring.

Maybe AI and drug treatments for dementia will help. I can't see any government wanting to talk about this though.

PumpkinPie2016 · 15/08/2023 12:42

While the birth rate, on average, is falling and affecting some things, such as the school you mention, I don't think it's widespread.

I live and work in a town in the North West. It is very culturally diverse and this has become more so, even since I was a child (I'm 36 now). We have a large white British and a large Asian population in the town. In recent years, we have also seen an increase in the number of African families settling in the area.

One child I teach for instance, migrated from Nigeria only 2 years ago.

Obviously among all of these people there are varying numbers of children - anything from 1 to 7/8/9.

So, for towns like ours, the population isn't declining, whereas in other areas it may be.

Nothingisblackandwhite · 15/08/2023 12:19

People may not like this and I have issues with this myself but I think the idea of prolonging life in the elderly is wrong and I what is causing massive issues . I see this now with some relatives and friends relatives , older people bed bound or with barely any quality of life being almost forced to carry on , put in care homes , often their mind is gone but relatives and doctors insist on treatments that clearly will only prolongue a already awful existence . We had this issue with my nana a few years ago , where she was sane of mind but when she got pneumonia despite repeatedly telling doctors to leave her alone and refusing treatment they insisted and treat her the 4 times she got ill . I’m by no means defending euthanasia in humans ( that’s a whole different subject ) but surely keeping someone going for them to be bed bound when they don’t want to carry on is wrong

Nothingisblackandwhite · 15/08/2023 12:02

Longtimelutker2019 · 31/07/2023 15:32

Batshit? If you don’t think this ten fold increase in same sex relationships will decrease the population maybe you need a lesson in biology…..

Show quote history

It will but maybe not as much as people think . Every same sex couple I know that is younger than 50 has children , both male and female , in fact my friend and colleague is about to have his 3 rd child via surrogate , my old school friend is about to have her 5 th with her wife , my best friends daughter 25 is pregnant , got married last year to her now wife .

TodayInahurry · 15/08/2023 09:14

Agree, the world is grossly overpopulated, 8 billion humans destroying the planet. I believe there were only some 2 billion when I was born.

many small villages do not provided jobs so retired people fleeing places like London move there

Original poster
user4567890754 · 15/08/2023 09:01

Yes I think part-time, flexible hours and remote working are going to be critical to retaining more people in the workforce for longer. Personally, I work part-time now about 2 days a week and have small children. I could envisage continuing at this pace for as long as my body and mind are able, as well as helping care for any grandchildren that might arrive. My DH works full-time in a demanding job, but is also considering ways of slowing down rather than stopping completely as we age.

I have no expectation of stopping paid labour completely in my 60s. It’s fairly obvious the public pension system as it is is not going to be sustainable.

OP posts:
JustanothermagicMonday1 · 13/08/2023 18:42

Olderandolder- most people are retiring early not because they eg have a 100k final salary pension scheme. They are retiring early relying on eg 500k tax free equity in a house and a free NHS. If those aspects go and they have to pay a substantial tax on housing profit or 500 pounds a month healthcare per person, which is the case in many other countries, in both respects, they wouldn’t retire. And plenty of people go part time rather than retire because they want some quality of life and resent paying 40 per cent tax. So they stay under the threshold because mortgage free and time=
better quality of life then working 100 per cent and paying 40pc or even 45 pc tax.

I also think it is quite reasonable that more elderly people should work part time, it is pretty tiring to work 8 hours or more a day five days a week, after a certain age. Just as it is tiring to work full time with young kids. Would be great if it were acceptable for many people to just work part time, 60 or 80 per cent.

magim42447 · 13/08/2023 00:30

Longtimelutker2019 · 03/08/2023 01:49

There are far more same sex relationships nowadays, undeniably (and statistically)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-stats-idUSKCN1UY1GF

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/sexuality/bulletins/sexualidentityuk/2020

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@Longtimelutker2019

Doesnt say tenfold

Psyclops · 03/08/2023 10:19

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SiegmeyerOfCatarina · 03/08/2023 08:52

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Olderandolder · 03/08/2023 08:26

We actually are worrying about it.

A large employer put out a study last week complaining that fewer older Brits work than other nations.

Apparently it’s not good that Brit’s can afford to retire.

Olderandolder · 03/08/2023 08:24

HotSince82 · 02/06/2023 22:24

Don't be silly OP.

Decimating the fibre of society by demonising families with more than one child through the fear of climate change is really necessary.

We don't need children, families or society as we know it.

Now we have the advent of AI the whole structure is redundant; and we don't want cohesive, extended family units and societies to be around to think about things enough to throw a spanner in the works.

Stick to the plan. Children bad. Automation good.

Now go and shit yourself in the corner over there worrying about the climate crisis like a good little woman, won't you?

Thanks,

As you were.

Fabulous post

SunnyEgg · 03/08/2023 08:22

We may have issues due to the change, but AI will be fairly intense in resolving shortages for many sectors

SunnyEgg · 03/08/2023 08:11

user4567890754 · 02/08/2023 13:19

And it’s not just doctors we are lacking, and it’s not just in the UK.

There are unprecedented labour shortages in nearly every industry. The same thing is happening across the EU, in North America and Australia too.

We have to be a aware of this and plan for how we are going to adapt.

https://theconversation.com/what-is-driving-current-labour-market-shortages-and-how-older-workers-could-help-200873#:~:text=Many%20countries%20are%20struggling%20with,improve%20their%20work%2Dlife%20balance.

AI may be a big help with this, including Drs

Listening to report the other day on AI and breast cancer reducing workload. That’ll increase exponentially at some point.

pointythings · 03/08/2023 08:08

It is also the case that the increase in the number of people identifying as gay has increased because of acceptance, not because of 'promoting' being gay. These people were always gay. I really don't understand what you are trying to say.

pointythings · 03/08/2023 08:05

@Longtimelutker2019 those are statistics for the UK and therefore irrelevant globally. You have also not acknowledged that gay people can and do have children.

Lilyhatesjaz · 03/08/2023 07:49

I am looking at the advances in the treatment of dementia with some hope.
There are many elderly people in care homes who have dementia but are otherwise quite physically fit.
If dementia could be held at bay they could live independently for far longer and need less care from younger people.