Given notice at work

@Pluvia can you quote the part where it says she was sacked? Can’t see it.

@Pluvia my bad, I copied in something I was googling by mistake, multi tasking as usual! You are a harsh critic. 😂

OP hasn’t said if it’s redundancy or not, I’m not sure it’s helpful to answer on their behalf as it’s going to confuse matters.

As a veteran of the redundancy rich fashion industry I know a little about termination of contract. You can’t just do it there has to be a reason. (Being employed less than 2 years gives you very few rights but legally termination should still fall into one of these reasons) It doesn’t sound like OP is ill, incompetent or going to prison so I deduced that it could be redundancy.

IllnessYou can be dismissed if you have a persistent or long-term illness that makes it impossible for you to do your job.
Before taking any action, your employer should:

• look for ways to support you - for example, considering whether the job itself is making you sick and needs changing
• give you reasonable time to recover from your illness

• you unreasonably refuse to accept a company reorganisation that changes your employment terms
• you’re sent to prison

Have you looked into what the job market is like? I managed to get another job in 9 days of unemployment fortunately but I found it very mixed out there and the really good, better then I’ve ever had it paying job doesn’t start for a month!

This week there’s been a couple of times when it really honestly has been a bidding war with the Employer only accepting people of course who’ll work for really as close to national wage as possible.

Don’t go sick unless it really truly is warranted. I’d enjoy finding another job on their time though. And I like the suggestion made to appeal the dismissal.

Some of these small companies have same weird views. I wasn’t expected to be cross examined by one such small biz company owner this week also, who couldn’t understand in my second to last job with a large national company that being off sick meant I actually risked disciplinary proceedings and had there ever been a second sickness I’d have been a goner anyway, that small company seriously just couldn’t get it!

Any scope after you’ve left for the version of events to change as to why you’ve left? I’m just concerned for you they’ll try and end up saying you left of own accord. Did the company offer you one of the lower paying jobs?

Go on sick !!!!!!

Have you asked whether you can go now? Be put on garden leave?

Getting sacked obviously changes the dynamics , I wouldn’t want to go in and face people after that. And I cannot imagine any employer wants someone in that frame of mind in their office.

I would have a frank discussion explaining how that would make you feel and if they insist I would call that bullying.

There is of course the chance they realise that and instead of asking you to work on the next project they have said that you can do some staff training.

They may be happy for you to go without notice.

I know nothing of the law but my interpretation is that notice periods are there as a duty for one side to give some protection to the other. So the employer’s notice is their duty and your right to protect you from suddenly not having any income and giving you some time to look for a new job. The employee’s notice is your duty and their right to not be left in the lurch when the employee leaves.

Once one side terminates the contract, it only needs to adhere to its duty, I.e. give the other some protection as intended. At this point I would reasonably expect my work duties with the employer to cease.

Personally, if I didn’t feel like going back to the office I would write to them to inform them that I waive my rights to a notice period.

I’d be tempted to go off sick and then do a phased return to work…

They are not making the OP redundant: they are sacking her four months before she reaches the 2-year-mark and expecting her to work three months notice training up people to replace her. They want her to work. Go back and read the rest of her responses.

The notice isn't the issue to me its that they expect you to train other people in a system you developed. Can you partly train them ie leave out a few points?

Can you ask you pay in lieu of notice as they are making you redundant? Alternatively If you are under notice which has been served to you in writing you can go sick if you get a go fit note. Or you ride it out and busy yourself applying for jobs and do a basic handover.

It's not a redundancy and what a mini Monstera plant has to do with things I don't know.

If you are really close to your two years, remember that the two years goes from when you started to the end of your employment. Now there is usually a contractual term that allows them to pay you in lieu of notice, and terminate employment immediately to get around this. If they are insisting on you working your notice and it takes you over two years then they have shot both their own feet off. Go along with it, but threaten to sue for unfair dismissal once you have hit 24 months should earn you a nice juicy settlement that makes you feel much happier.

If it’s a redundancy you entitled to time off for job hunting during your notice period. So milk that.
Acas website is a good resource for more Rhaphidophora tetraspermamini monstdetails of this.
Call ACAS or citizens advice, they will tell you exactly what you are entitled to.

Does your contract include training other people. If not just do bare minimum then eff off. They have completely taken the piss out of you. I would do the same to them. Or just go off sick and put your feet up.

Going on garden leave is an opportunity and a benefit for the employee to be released to seek new employment, it isn't a bad thing. For whatever reason they've decided you aren't in their plans so they're exercising their contractual obligation by keeping to the notice period.

In answer to your question, the employee's 'tool' is that of clever negotiation, so both sides come away with a benefit.

Eg, You could try negotiating a shorter notice period, as a 'tool' on your side of the contract, which would be better achieved by giving them a time-boxed plan of exactly what you commit to achieving and by when, rather than being resentful and begrudging, which could cause them to cling on to you longer than if you maintain some goodwill. So you could send your manager an email stating you'll (for example):

1. Provide x hours per day/week of handover training to x staff (name them), including an opportunity for feedback from the staff to indicate they're happy with the training provided;
2. Provide the team with a User guide/business process stored in xyz location - if this is already available, state this, as it's one less thing to do;
3. Support for ad hoc queries throughout the weeks you are in post.

you could estimate the above as being achievable in, say, 6 weeks total, which is half what your contractual notice period is, a win for both you and your employer. As you mentioned you don't "need" the cash, so leaving early won't be a problem to you and they save on 6 weeks' pay. Notice periods can be excessively long (sometimes for no real benefit) and there's no harm in asking for earlier release if you have a viable exit strategy.

I'm going to be controversial here, but if you're as good as you say you are on this thread (I'm not doubting you, just saying), the above will be a breeze and you could be out the door a lot sooner, with good will and professional reputation intact.

As I said upthread you could go rogue and breach your contract earlier than agreed with your employer, but I would never recommend anyone does that. It could tarnish your reputation, which is difficult to recover from if you care about your career.

ACAS advice will be limited to your employment rights in law, which I expect will amount to some variation of what I've suggested (I.e. negotiate an earlier release). They could also say "you could just walk away and leave them to it, they probably won't sue" fair enough, but that would be an opinion and a risk, and not necessarily a wise thing to do.

I hope you get what you want from a bad situation.

Hi, not a nice way to reward innovators is it? Can you go over your bosses head to their line manager and point out all the innovations you’ve made which made your job easy to manage? You would think that smart company leaders would want to hang on to someone with those capabilities. I wouldn’t be surprised if your boss has taken credit for your work, nor would I be surprised if your boss wants rid of you because they see you as a threat. If this approach brings you no joy then start looking asap. Your obligations to your company with regards to notice period might be different from theirs towards you. Not sure though, so check your contract.

I’m worst case just ‘quiet quit’. Only work contracted hours. Ignore all contact outside of that time. Do nothing proactive except what you are asked to do. Take full contractual breaks etc.

It’s totally at their discretion so I think you should just ask them for a shorter notice.
I’ve done it and I just highlighted the benefits to them.
you’ll have to sell the idea to them.

You're clearly experienced and confident and don't desperately need the money, so in your shoes I'd consider emailing over the weekend saying you'd like to leave with immediate effect to pursue other options, heavily implying
that there was someone else interested / you had offers of contracting work. I might say that I'd like next Friday off for an interview and I'd also say that I was consulting an employment lawyer in order that I fully understood my position. (I probably wouldn't actually consult a lawyer). I'd hope this would make it clear that I wasn't going to roll over quietly. If they're not open to negotiation I'd probably walk away immediately — but it depends on how much the lack of a reference would affect you. I know that good IT people are in such demand that in many cases it wouldn't matter much.

Unless you're trained as a trainer you're not in a good position to train others. Designing this system you'll have done certain things without thought as a result of years of accumulated knowledge. When it comes to training you'd need to start from the ground up. I'd state this in writing, adding that they've already said that they have no one with the capacity or knowledge to train up for holiday cover. They can't expect current staff to get up to speed in just three months (that are likely to include a lot of holiday leave). I'd put all this in writing so that when you leave and things go wrong, you can point to your email and say you warned them.

If you need a reference and decide you have to stay, do what experienced people here have suggested. Play the system like your employer has. Work to rule and use leave, childcare leave if appropriate, sick days and days for interviews* to bugger up the training/ manual-writing process. Let your day-to-day work pile up and then cancel training days in order to catch up. 'Accidentally' assign training sessions for days when key trainees are away on holiday, then cancel and have difficulty rescheduling. Leave them with semi-trained staff who don't know what they don't know, a manual with a holes in it and a few glitches in the system that will need only arise attention after you've left. I recommend a badly sprained ankle/ torn ligament incurred when you were out running/ playing tennis/ doing HIT training as a good way of getting to wfh for a few weeks, and a GP appointment, Minor Injuries Unit trip, physio or chiropractic most working days.

Good luck. You sound like a capable, reasonable person and you deserved better than this employer.

*there seems to be some disagreement about whether you're allowed time off for interviews if you haven't been there two years, but I'd suggest you presume this is your right and force them to prove it isn't.

Why would you expect a company to be honest?

The purpose of a company is to make money and act in the best interest of the shareholders.

I struggled with this when I was younger and thought things like “how dare they treat me like this”, “they should be honest” etc. When you realise and accept that they do not care and never will your life becomes so much simpler.

Taking the emotion out of work has been so freeing. I have so much more mental energy.

You would be in breach of contract . This being said nothing can be done if you go on sick leave and they need to count that as working . Speak with a Gp tell them it’s stressing you massively maybe you can just stay home those months

They’ve shown you little consideration, clearly and deliberately serving notice at the latest possible time before you are eligible for any kind of redundancy. With that, providing you don’t need their reference and they refuse to let you go sooner, I’d get a GP to sign you off sick, ideally for the remainder of your time with them. I don’t understand why so many people show so much loyalty to employers who would replace them at the drop of a hat.

I would have thought the chances of them taking legal action against you, should you go early, are minimal and would be costly for them.

The key issue to my mind is whether they could cause problems with a bad reference etc.

And yes, in your shoes I think I would go tomorrow.

@MrsPinkCock as I said earlier. A lawyer or union. Someone able to establish if there is a bigger picture here.

Rather than rely on an Internet forum where anyone can claim to be anyone.

As an employer they’re running a hell of a risk to fire someone and then insist they work out their full 3 months notice. Jeez, that’s a hell of a lot of time for a disgruntled employee to do a lot of secret damage to your business. Rather stupid and naive of them.
I have a question- what were the grounds for your dismissal? Surely they had to give you some? Did they put these in writing?

if it is what you say that you’ve been bought in, set up wow etc and now the team is established they’re firing you and replacing you with cheaper labour, yet your contract is permanent, I’d be wording a pretty strong letter that you are taking legal advice on those reasons. Nowt more than that at this stage. But express you aren’t happy for the reasons given, you took a permentant contract, and your role has not disappeared, you’re not being made redundant, and you’ve had no performance issues.

That’ll let them know you aren’t going to take this with a shrug and never mind. And raise the spectre that they have a potential very disgruntled employee on their books for next 3 months. Don’t threaten them with anything about your work performance at all. At any time. But hopefully you raising that you’re not happy will make them think that placing you on garden leave after say 6 weeks, might just be sensible.

as people say, do only what’s in your contract. Don’t take on anything that’s not expressly written as your job description. Simply state I will not being talks now that aren’t in my job description. Work your exact hours even if it means leaving a meeting part way through or arriving late. Again, state that I have to focus on my future now and cannot afford to work uncontracted hours. Do the nearest minimal. At the minimum effort. Do not volunteer effort, knowledge, skills at any point. Do not be “helpful”, “kind” and all the other shit women are expected. Even if you like the individual. Do not make it your business to train the incompetent or slow learners. Deliver a set format training, once, and that’s it. If they don’t get it or ask for help, simply state that it’s better for them to learn how to do it themselves and use resources available like documentation, online etc and make a few mistakes along the way like you did, as you won’t be around for long and they’ll have to sort their own issues out then. Yep, they’ll be feedback about you not being “helpful”, but what do they expect and what can they do about that other than stop to think that this is the risk they took.

id also agree with others, it is better to try to find a job whilst still working. But on the other hand it is much easier to find work form effort point of view when not in work if you’re doing a niche or professional role- looking for work is a full time occupation .

if it comes to a head, say that you must focus on your future like any other human would in these circumstances, and that you are prepared for them to put you on garden leave, or be paid in lieu of notice. But don’t , at that stage, offer to compromise on notice period or payment in lieu. They’re treating you badly if the reasons given are truely the only reasons. And they’re being really dumb to think anyone would behave in a different way.