AIBU to despair about DofE cheating

Fair enough - I'm, done with my input anyway, will be interesting to see how the discussion develops further.

I should have been clearer. I meant talk of one particular university and whether DofE holds any merit with them is derailing the conversation.

Maybe...but given that quite a lot of kids do it to add to their CVs or their personal statement, it's not totally derailing to discuss the merits of doing it for CV building.

Regardless of "Cambridge".... it's derailing the main convo that for the majority of DofE participants who do it properly, it is likely to lead to increased confidence and proof that they are able to put hours of effort outside of academic exams. If cheating were suspected, any admissions tutor/job interviewer worth their salt could deduce that reasonably quickly.

Very interesting but even back then they did score the interview - that's where you might get to talk about an experience you had - but I seriously doubt having that experience within the DoE or outside of it would not matter...and indeed that is what the Admissions Tutor said - publicly. Other people cheating does not devalue your experience - because cheaters aren't very good at talking about an experience they didn't have.
"one of the academics notes that he got an interview score of two, out of a possible 10. “Oh dear,” says Richard Partington, the senior admissions tutor, who sits at the head of the table."
"This is an easier case – her interview scores are high, an eight and a seven out of 10."
"There is another girl from a comprehensive school who got an eight at interview, but one academic exclaims: “Blooming heck, her GCSE score was terrible.”
And I'd say when it comes to deciding who to give a job to conversations are had like this.

I read an article, from a while ago, about it. It couldn't be more open to unconscious bias if it was deliberately designed to be that way. They sat around discussing the merits of each person, application by application. Including comments on their appearance and hair. Some of the comments were a bit shocking tbh.

https://www.cambridgeinterviewquestions.com/so-who-is-good-enough-to-get-into-cambridge/

Hopefully it's a bit better these days but possibly they really don't score the overall application at all.

You do that and get back to us, please. I'd be particularly intrigued by what system they use to assess their candidates fairly across all criteria if they don't score them...

I wasn't aware that Cambridge use a points system in their application decisions.
Interesting, I'll raise it with Mike Nicholson next time I chat with him.

...and the skiing qualifications awarded by BASI do attract UCAS points.

In any event the thing D of E does is increase confidence and self reliance as well as giving candidates something to talk about.

I was not talking about UCAS points I was talking about the points you award a candidate when assessing them across a range of skills and attributes, the candidates with the highest points will get the place.

I wasn't talking about actual UCAS points - I was talking about how you score someone going through a process. Sure if someone wants to talk about something they did for their DofE award that is relevant to the position, they will get scored on how they talk about it and what they did but we will not award recruitment points for a DofE award and given what the Cambridge Admissions Tutor was at pains to point out at this public lecture we were invited to Cambridge won't either.
Don't be too alarmed other employers and universities are probably tripping over themselves to employ kids with a DoE award and Grade 7 in music. We are not - I hear med schools have stopped being impressed by stuff like this too but I'm just going by friends whose kids got in for that info.

I think you may have got things muddled up. Points are not awarded by the universities. They are recognised by the universities.

What are these points that you think Cambridge award?

Music exams attract UCAS tariff points, and each grade can be compared to other qualifications.
DofE does not attract UCAS tariff points as it is a personal development programme with each participant choosing what they do and determining the level of development they get out of it through their efforts.

I think the cost can vary, my son did his DofE through army cadets and it didn't cost me a penny, GS has done it through school and it has cost although the biggest cost was his residential and he could have done a free or very low cost one but as he hadn't had a holiday and had a difficult time (hence living with GPs) we were happy to fund it.

Having said that my son did it some years ago so I don't know if cadets are quite so generous now.

Our recruitment is already skewed toward middle-class kids - it's that kind of industry - we do what we can to ensure kids from less well-off backgrounds are not kicked out in the first sift due to the lack of middle-class hobbies. It's not the only thing we do though, we fund travel to interviews and provide salary loans if needed, to help kids get set up for the first few months.

They want to see self starting enthusiasm for the subject you are applying for and evidence of super curricular stuff (which can be accessed for free). That’s what we were told anyway. Otherwise it’s very unfair - only the pushy upper middle class kids who bashed away at the violin would ever get university places!

I'm afraid I can and I do compare skiing and Grade 7 in music - both require a healthy bank balance and I disregard both - levelling the playing field is one of our objectives in searching for good employees. Interestingly the University of Cambridge does not award points for Grade 7 in music or DoE for the same reason.

You can't compare Grade 7 in music with enjoying skiing in France!

Grade 7 in music demonstrates diligence, tenacity, focus, attention to detail, practice and putting in effort alongside the usual day job/study. Can't think of any decent job that wouldn't require some or all of those skills. That's why Grades 6 upwards in music can be relevant to university entry in terms of points.

I recruit grads I've never valued the DoE on a CV (I don't devalue it either)- someone can talk to me about what they have done whilst doing it during an interview but the fact that it was gained during DoE will be irrelevant, as irrelevant as a grade 7 in music or captain of a rugby team or enjoy skiing in France - nice for you...happy for you if you enjoy it - and if you got something out of it, even better but I need to hear how it has made you better at doing the job I interview for and funnily enough - it has never come up - none of it!

@drinkeatsmile

I absolutely agree that the value doesn't come from the medal or award or recognition from others.

It does come from knowing you put in the hard work and you earnt that reward.

Cheating devalues it for everyone, because even though you know you haven't cheated, others don't know and may wrongly assume you have. Why should anyone have to defend that.

I think we can tell from some of the responses that some posters would have no qualms about their child/children cheating to accomplish something.
Sad state of the world that we live in.

I can sort of agree with your point about doing it for yourself, not for the medal or whatever - but I do think that once someone has achieved something, they should be able to list it on their CV/UCAS or whatever without it having been devalued. If you achieve it honestly, but have only done it for UCAS, it is still showing dedication and commitment, even though you didn’t really fancy it for its own sake.

that said, I know several who are getting d of e by using stuff (well twisting it) to just get it within the criteria.

and some have more access to the qualification than others

so overall, it is definitely devalued.

I think people cheating devalues it only if you do it for the glory of the reward and you expect to be applauded and congratulated for the achievement. It's personal development - it's personal goals that shouldn't be set to compete with others. Real progress and achievement comes from within - making yourself proud and feeling good in yourself at what you have done.
Looking to others for validation is the path to frustration and misery. In the past I, as I'm sure many of you have, been moved to tears by things my kids have achieved that I know have been a real personal struggle for them - not something that they got medals for or stood up on a stage and got applause for but something that they had to reach deep down within, face a huge fear and conquer it - no one will know what they did and how important it was but them (and me of course) and that is what I try to teach them...the medals and certificates are fluff.

I lost all respect for this award when I saw my step children and others boasting about "cheating" and getting people to lie and sign off things they hadn't done. Such a shame as it devalues it for those who do try and who do make valid and large efforts.

Exactly - you ask the kids why they're there & it's very often "Mum/Dad said it'll look good on my CV" - that's not what it's about.

Don't get me wrong, many of them learn lots about themselves & come out of it having benefited - I just think the marketing by DofE is missing the mark & making it a lot more commercial....