Safeguarding inheritance

Stratusinium · 2023-04-25T20:01:02+00:00

Posting for traffic - TLDR; relates to inheritance and a parent living with a partner (not married) and wanting to ensure kids inherit. So, as brief as poss! My DF lives in the house he and my DM bought in the 90s. DM died in the 90s and DF has been with current partner for just under 8 years. She moved from her XH’s to my DF’s home and has lived there since. DF has purposely not married and has initiated conversation with me about inheritance, saying he has spoken to solicitor and has had will (re-)written to ensure his estate goes to DSis and I rather than his partner. Partner is quite controlling and we anticipate that if she were to survive him, she will try to claim any inheritance/estate for herself. She has tried to encourage him to sell up house and re-buy with her and for e.g. has also spent money on decoration and refurbishment of the house (fairly superficial - not loft conversions or anything). She is very aware of this and has actually mentioned that she has invested in house - am sure she is aware of the implications in terms of potentially claiming a share of equity. DF is currently in good health and sharp as ever, however another concern is if he were to become frail in any way she might try and do something like claim power of attorney or engineer that they get married. For those that know about that sort of thing, what does he (and we) need to be aware of in terms of safeguarding him and what he wishes to pass on to us? Should also add, I don’t automatically feel I’m entitled to anything - it’s his life and money and he can do what he wishes with it. However he has expressed his wishes to me and she is a very controlling person (hence he has no intention of them getting married and has sought legal advice). (Sadly he has also described her as abusive, however it does not seem he has plans to leave or end the relationship.) Hopefully it’s a long way off, but it worries me already that should this situation come to pass it will be upsetting and there will be an unpleasant battle with her to see his wishes respected. Any advice appreciated.

denpark · 26/04/2023 13:54

Ensure you and your sister
have power of attorney asap

tonyele · 26/04/2023 13:51

Even if you don't have a solicitor as a trustee, I would strongly advise any will or trust to be drawn up and witnessed by a solicitor, yes it costs some cash, but it will be done correctly, and if they mess it up their professional insurance takes over.
They can set it up and then take a back seat. I use an old fashioned country firm of solicitors, cost about £1500 all in to set up 3 wills, 9 powers of attorney and a trust. They sit as a trustee, but make no annual fees unless their services are required.
They are not involved in the wills or POA again, other than they hold certified copies in case of any dispute.

ElizaMulvil · 26/04/2023 11:29

@tonyele

In the UK you can set up a trust, with the eventual beneficiaries, in this case the OP and sister, and a solicitor as the three trustees.
........................................................................................

There is no need to have a solicitor as a trustee either for a Trust like this or for a will. They will charge the estate for their services.

If they delay in dealing with it or prove to be incompetent there will be nothing you can easily do as the person who appointed them is now dead. The main beneficiaries should be the Executors / Trustees of a will as they will have an incentive to act quickly.

If subsequently you do need legal advice you can appoint your own solicitor to help you - one you have control over.

EggInANest · 26/04/2023 11:06

OP: He needs to remember that if she persuaded him to marry, his Will becomes invalid.

He could still make a new Will leaving his estate to his children, but to avoid a successful challenge she would need to be left able to support herself.

His Will should ideally have an explanation that he has chosen to leave his house to his children because he knows his partner, the other resident, is not financially dependent on him, and maybe leave an amount of time that she can stay in the house before sale. This is what my solicitor put in my Will when I lived with my partner, but in a house we co-owned, as Tenants In Common.

IF your Df is persuaded to marry he needs to talk to his solicitor about the house as a marital asset…

I hope he will not marry a woman he recognised as controlling and abusive. 🙁

Dontbelieveaword · 26/04/2023 10:47

@ActDottie and that was the reason for the question mark, I wasn't trying to state a fact. I've only personally known people to get POA when relatives or partners have been diagnosed with dementia or alzheimers. Anyone who has read the thread can see it's been stated many times that I was incorrect and giving OP correct information. But thank you for quoting me again and pointing it out again, I just wasn't getting it the first 10 times, I'm that dim

Runaway0 · 26/04/2023 10:36

heidiwine · 26/04/2023 10:13

@Runaway0 i couldn’t change my partners will. It’s his. My will is void on his death. He has ensured that his children are well provided for on his death. When he dies I will make a new will. It’s totally up to me what I decide to do and while there’s no legal obligation for me to ensure his children inherit from me there is a moral
obligation.
Lucky that my DP sees and treats me as family and that he wants to share his life with me. This includes making sure I’m not homeless when he dies.

Fair enough I think he's silly he should do a life time interest which means you get to live in the property but it's not yours to change the will. You might see it as a moral obligation but other second spouses don't. I wouldn't want other offspring benefiting from my estate, I would want it to remain in my family line.

heidiwine · 26/04/2023 10:13

@Runaway0 i couldn’t change my partners will. It’s his. My will is void on his death. He has ensured that his children are well provided for on his death. When he dies I will make a new will. It’s totally up to me what I decide to do and while there’s no legal obligation for me to ensure his children inherit from me there is a moral
obligation.
Lucky that my DP sees and treats me as family and that he wants to share his life with me. This includes making sure I’m not homeless when he dies.

Stemmingthetide · 26/04/2023 09:50

@Stratusinium you DF needs legal advice.

The main issue for you is emotional, because you feel the house was 50% your Mum’s and she would want it to eventually be inherited by her DC not your Dad’s partner.

Whilst it is not right for everyone, making the house ownership tenants in common and owning the house 50:50 with a life interest to partner but DC inheriting is something everyone should consider.

Your DF maybe able to do something similar now e.g. making the house into tenets in common and gifting you and DSis a %. A deed of trust would set out what happens in a range of circumstances.

Some posters have suggested leaving his partner a lump sum, unless there is a huge disparity in age, a lifetime interest in the house but not allowed to move in a partner, husband etc. may be an option.

One of the things I always point out is the emotional value of items in the parental home, these can actually hurt far more than the £. For example your Mum’s jewellery, photos, pictures, furniture etc. to others they may seem worthless but to you they mean a huge amount. It is worth thinking about them and either taking photos of the items now so you have the memory or even asking for them to be specifically left to you or even gifted to you now. I want a pair of spoons from my parents, meaningless to anyone else but full of memories to me.

I can’t see you said how old your DF is, he is already suffering emotional abuse/controlling behaviour this is more likely to increase as he ages. Age concern has some useful information about elder abuse. You may need to consider involving social services etc. to have a paper trail of abuse. Getting POAs now is really important.

tonyele · 26/04/2023 09:40

Runaway0 · 26/04/2023 09:16

This is what many people want to avoid. It's a huge amount of trust to ensure the surviving spouse doesn't change the will. It gives them a huge amount of power over the adult dc. I would only want my assets to go my DC and my lineage not someone else's offspring.

Show quote history

Quite, which is where the trust / life interest model really comes into its own as it cannot be revoked or changed.

Runaway0 · 26/04/2023 09:16

heidiwine · 26/04/2023 07:54

I’m the partner of a man who has two adult children. These are the steps we’ve taken to ensure that both me and the adult children benefit from any inheritance. I think these are the steps your dad could/should take - we did this after taking legal advice and think it’s the most secure way of managing inheritance and step children/ex wife without actually getting married.

DP and I both have LPA over each other (health and financial).
I have a life interest in the house we live in (it is not jointly owned) - this means I can’t be made homeless when he dies.
All assets including the house are split between the three of us. It’s not an equal split but it’s what my partner and I deemed appropriate.

My will includes his children as well as my nieces and nephews but it is immediately invalidated on his death (or certainly my nieces and nephews won’t benefit from my share of his assets if we die in short succession).

That said, I don’t have a legal obligation to pass on my share of the overall inheritance to his children on my death.

This was all pretty straightforward and inexpensive. Solicitors are used to this sort of thing and do it all the time.

This is what many people want to avoid. It's a huge amount of trust to ensure the surviving spouse doesn't change the will. It gives them a huge amount of power over the adult dc. I would only want my assets to go my DC and my lineage not someone else's offspring.

KILM · 26/04/2023 09:04

Can't believe some of the responses you are getting on here when you've said it's an abusive relationship! She has her own money and as an adult it's her responsibility to make sure she has a plan in place for herself should the worst happen. Personally I hope she ends up with nothing, treating your father how she does! Best of luck to you.

Original poster

Stratusinium · 26/04/2023 08:53

DisquietintheRanks · 26/04/2023 06:35

PoA will help, and a legitimate up to date will is crucial, but neither are failsafe as they can be revoked/remade. If she's really so controlling/abusive your father should free himself now. He'll just have to cook and clean for himself, or pay someone to do that for him. He does rather seem to want his cake and eat it.

He already cooks and cleans for himself! (And did already when my DM was alive - they never had a ‘housewife’ style arrangement – despite the fact my dad worked full time and my DM didn’t work at all, he did the majority of the cooking and housework.) Some horrible assumptions here - is this just based on lazy sexist stereotypes??

OP posts:

tonyele · 26/04/2023 08:50

Stratusinium · 26/04/2023 08:38

For the messages addressing the issue of provisions for DF’s partner, thanks for highlighting this.

I agree that it would be totally fair that partner is included in will. I don’t know that she isn’t – although can see how original post could suggest that.

As mentioned upthread to another poster, my concern is not that she would get ’something’ – I think that would be totally fair – it’s that she would try to engineer things or battle with us for her and her kids to have everything.

My DF brought up his will and his house apropos of nothing – it is not a conversation I have initiated. However I know very little about the topic and what issues might be necessary to be aware of.

The reason I’m asking about it now also is because I dread a harrowing situation playing out if she survives him.

The ideal case scenario is simply that everything is in place should she survive him and things don’t have to be contested. Because I feel that would be a horrible, upsetting situation. However I’m not naive and accept that this may be a situation we have to face.

All very sensible OP, it is best to get things in place now, and of course you have a vested interest in your fathers future care (if needed) and securing any inheritance you father wishes you to have, which of course doesn't mean she gets nothing!

tonyele · 26/04/2023 08:45

Stratusinium · 26/04/2023 08:10

Thank you for the info

Show quote history

I'll add to that in saying not only do they take a long time to process, the Office of the Public Guardian often return forms (even to solicitors) for ammendments and make mistakes themselves.
When I had ours done, by our solicitor, my name was spelt wrong, it was clearly correct on the form my solicitor sent in, so not their fault, however the OoPG would not ammend or admit they had goofed, everything had to be re-submitted, it took months!!

With regard to a will, get a solicitor to do it rather than DIY, whilst a DIY will is perfectly legal, having a will witnessed by a solicitor and their clerk and filed at their office is rather less easy to challenge.

Original poster

Stratusinium · 26/04/2023 08:38

For the messages addressing the issue of provisions for DF’s partner, thanks for highlighting this.

I agree that it would be totally fair that partner is included in will. I don’t know that she isn’t – although can see how original post could suggest that.

As mentioned upthread to another poster, my concern is not that she would get ’something’ – I think that would be totally fair – it’s that she would try to engineer things or battle with us for her and her kids to have everything.

My DF brought up his will and his house apropos of nothing – it is not a conversation I have initiated. However I know very little about the topic and what issues might be necessary to be aware of.

The reason I’m asking about it now also is because I dread a harrowing situation playing out if she survives him.

The ideal case scenario is simply that everything is in place should she survive him and things don’t have to be contested. Because I feel that would be a horrible, upsetting situation. However I’m not naive and accept that this may be a situation we have to face.

OP posts:

Upsizer · 26/04/2023 08:34

I agree with @Oaktree1233 - there may be stereotypes creeping into our thinking here which are unhelpful. There are two decent things to do:

tell the woman their relationship is over and allow them both to move on
commit to his relationship and ensure that his partner (who IS likely to nurse him eventually) has financial security and a house over her head until her death.

What is NOT decent is encouraging him to enact a post-death act of revenge as you are suggesting. Please don’t do that!

Oaktree1233 · 26/04/2023 08:17

My confusion is this. If a man marries or lives with a women why is she painted as evil and needed to be kept out of inheriting? Why should a daughter have any more rights than a long term lover or wife especially if that relationship is maintained for decades? The issue I understand is when the mothers money has been inherited by dad and then goes to second wife/ lover - that is unfair. Otherwise, this man is a grown up and did not have to allow this woman to move in. He allowed her to do so or even invited her to do so and made a form of commitment to her. He could have insisted they stayed in separate homes.

Also how old is this father- just hope the answer is not in his 60s as really none of this is that relevant at that age unless he has a sudden cancer or heart attack. So much will happen and change before he dies . Moreover if he does marry her and leave her enough to live on isn’t it better to suck up to new mother in law if she has no kids of her own rather than wind her up about protecting inheritance.

Im just not buying this somehow enfeebled man who is in good health but ‘controlled’ picture. I think he wants a quiet life and likes having a live in partner but wants to keep daughter off his back and placated.

Upsizer · 26/04/2023 08:16

I would really focus on talking to your father about an alternate life now. I’m assuming he’s quite young and surely would be happier living independently with better relationships with his family. If she’s working then you have every working day to have these conversations!

He even has time to find someone else to share his life with, if that’s what he wants. He may have 30 years left and yes, lots of that is likely to be his female partner looking after him - that’s just a fact.

I think focusing on the inheritance is quite unpleasant actually.

Original poster

Stratusinium · 26/04/2023 08:10

countrygirl99 · 26/04/2023 08:04

Adding to the POA chorus they are currently taking 5-6 months to register. DH submitted one for MIL at the beginning of June last year and we got the confirmation just before Christmas. That is not unusual now. It caused a lot of problems as MIL has capacity but is severely disabled following a stroke and can't talk, read or write. When FIL died of sepsis in July MIL couldn't access to their bank account until DH could register the POA with the bank in between Christmas and New Year. So the earlier you doit the better.

Thank you for the info

OP posts:

Original poster

Stratusinium · 26/04/2023 08:09

Oaktree1233 · 26/04/2023 08:04

As soon as she lives with him for more than 2 years she has a potential claim. Moreover if she also for instance becomes old and in-firmed before your father dies this will weigh on a judge who won’t want her being a burden on the State.

The Act itself provides a clear list of factors the court must consider. Financial needs and resources will always be central, but not all of the other factors will be relevant in every case:

the financial resources and financial needs which the applicant has or is likely to have in the foreseeable future
the financial resources and financial needs which any other applicant for an order under section 2 of this Act has or is likely to have in the foreseeable future
the financial resources and financial needs which any beneficiary of the estate of the deceased has or is likely to have in the foreseeable future
any obligations and responsibilities which the deceased had towards any applicant for provision or towards any beneficiary of the estate of the deceased
the size and nature of the net estate of the deceased
any physical or mental disability of any applicant or of any beneficiary of the estate of the deceased
any other matter, including the conduct of the applicant or any other person, which in the circumstances of the case the court may consider relevant. Conduct can include the conduct of the deceased, not just those interested in their estate.

Thanks for the info.

OP posts:

caringcarer · 26/04/2023 08:08

HowSpicy · 25/04/2023 21:16

You should get the financial & health power of attorney in place ASAP
It takes a few weeks
You can do it with him yourself
Print the forms off look on www.gov.uk & search for power of attorney

Yes exactly.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 26/04/2023 08:07

Powers of Attorney are a must - finances and health and welfare. They can be done at any time, well in advance. Dh and I did ours some years ago.

If you wait until someone has e.g. the beginnings of dementia, it may well be too late.

As pps have said, you can print the forms off and do them yourselves. You don’t need a solicitor, but you do need to read the instructions very carefully - particularly about witnesses and dating IIRC - any mistake will mean they’ll be rejected and you’ll have to start (and pay) again.

I don’t blame you at all for wanting to safeguard your inheritance, OP. I do know someone whose father (with early undiagnosed dementia) was taken abroad by the woman who was supposed to be his live-in carer, where she married him and ended up with the entire, substantial estate. And I’ve heard of several cases where a 2nd wife or partner has managed to contrive much the same.

Oaktree1233 · 26/04/2023 08:04

As soon as she lives with him for more than 2 years she has a potential claim. Moreover if she also for instance becomes old and in-firmed before your father dies this will weigh on a judge who won’t want her being a burden on the State.

The Act itself provides a clear list of factors the court must consider. Financial needs and resources will always be central, but not all of the other factors will be relevant in every case:

the financial resources and financial needs which the applicant has or is likely to have in the foreseeable future
the financial resources and financial needs which any other applicant for an order under section 2 of this Act has or is likely to have in the foreseeable future
the financial resources and financial needs which any beneficiary of the estate of the deceased has or is likely to have in the foreseeable future
any obligations and responsibilities which the deceased had towards any applicant for provision or towards any beneficiary of the estate of the deceased
the size and nature of the net estate of the deceased
any physical or mental disability of any applicant or of any beneficiary of the estate of the deceased
any other matter, including the conduct of the applicant or any other person, which in the circumstances of the case the court may consider relevant. Conduct can include the conduct of the deceased, not just those interested in their estate.

countrygirl99 · 26/04/2023 08:04

Adding to the POA chorus they are currently taking 5-6 months to register. DH submitted one for MIL at the beginning of June last year and we got the confirmation just before Christmas. That is not unusual now. It caused a lot of problems as MIL has capacity but is severely disabled following a stroke and can't talk, read or write. When FIL died of sepsis in July MIL couldn't access to their bank account until DH could register the POA with the bank in between Christmas and New Year. So the earlier you doit the better.

Trixibella · 26/04/2023 07:58

SunnyUmbrellaWeather · 25/04/2023 21:36

I would also suggest that in his will he leaves her a set amount of money specifically so that she can move out of the property within X time frame and the money will allow her to do that. That way he has considered her, her contribution to the property and her housing situation too. It needs to be stipulated she is to vacate the property. Hopefully there is money to enable her to do this ie not tied up in the sale of the house.

This - he should mention her by name and leave her a sun - it will make it harder for her to argue that she wasn’t considered and is dependent.

also if he does marry her in the scenario as unthread the will becomes invalid til he can write a new one and she does very well out of it. So definitely worth getting it sorted out.