Diane Abbott

And we are back to "my racism is worse than your racisim"....

There is not a hierarchy of racism. Black racism is not worse than Jewish racism or Irish racism or any racism - it may have different forms but is still all despicable.

@Againstmachine

Absolutely most slave ships only went to the ports and never went inland.

It's also interesting that people forget about the Barbary slave trade, it's estimated 1.5 million Europeans were taken.

It's not too trumps everyone has suffered many country's had the serfdom system which was practically slavery a couple of hundred years ago.

++++

Ahh but whenever slavery is discussed and history is taught or reparations campaigned for it is only from the perspective of the trans Atlantic slave trade from Africa to the New World.

For some background
Approx 12.5 million slaves taken from Africa to New World
Approx 1.5 million slaves taken from Western Europe (including my ancestors) to Africa
Approx 2.5 million slaves taken from Russia to Turkey
Between 11 and 18 million black African slaves taken east by Arab slaves traders.
The black slaves in Africa were captured and taken to ports by black African slave traders.
Black on black slavery still happens today in Sudan.

Yet whenever reparations or social injustice is brought up in relation to slavery no one ever mentions or expects compensation from the Arab countries or Turkey.

@DeeCeeCherry

"Her apology should be accepted"

+++

Except she only apologised for the anti semitism. She didn't apologise for the offence caused to travellers, the Irish or correct herself about all the "seemingly white people" that were abducted from their homes into slavery by African slave traders and shackled in slave ships back to Africa.

It is clear that she is just a nasty person.

she also openly supports Palestine are you saying her Jewish constituents wouldn’t vote for her because of this?

Absolutely most slave ships only went to the ports and never went inland.

It's also interesting that people forget about the Barbary slave trade, it's estimated 1.5 million Europeans were taken.

It's not too trumps everyone has suffered many country's had the serfdom system which was practically slavery a couple of hundred years ago.

However, Diane Abbott was replying to an article.

This is the problem! It wasn’t an article about anti black racism. She stormed in with apparently no thought whatsoever to tell other minorities that they are wrong and they don’t experience racism and even made reference to historical events without mentioning the holocaust. The equivalent of shouting ‘all lives matter’ really. I’ve always admired DA, and I think she’s absolutely been held to a higher standard than any other MP. It’s really sad to see her career (probably) ended this way but what she did is completely indefensible and very unfortunately shown her to be very probably antisemitic. This wasn’t a stilly comment said in the heat of debate. She actually wrote it on paper.

And of course Jews have been persecuted over the years way before the holocaust.
And were actually killed by Palestinians years before the creation of the state of Israel (read up on the Hebron massacre in 1929.) There were rapes and lynchings of Jews as a regular occurrence all over the world for years.

Very few of her orthodox jewish constituents vote for her. And tbh many of them don't bother to vote in the general elections at all because there's very little point. She is in a very very safe seat and has done very little for her Jewish constituents at all over the years.
She gets elected because she's the labour MP and may I dare to say it probably because she's a black woman too. She also openly supports Palestine so gets lots of votes from her many Palestine supporting constituents.

She doesn't get support from her Jewish constituents at all.
No one I know has ever voted for her.

Actually, I was the Roma and Gypsies being stereotyped as being associated with theft and trouble.
Of course, I know that Jewish people have been persecuted, had their possessions and land taken from them and had to move from place to place over centuries. Even before the Holocaust, I also understand there is antisemitism.

However, Diane Abbott was replying to an article.

On my part, when Black Lives Matter occurred it showed up how much direct and indirect racism people of colour have to still face, despite equal opportunities & laws against discrimination. Even now, Black people in the public eye are held up to a higher standard of behaviour. Look at the kind of rubbish Johnson came out with, he was never sanctioned, piled upon as being a racist or advised to stand down.

I am not antisemitic, but I am a realist, when it comes to racism against people of Black heritage, many just don't want understand what doesn't affect them.

@squirrelslikenutsAs a Jew, I find your post extremely offensive. Jews did not live in communities as a given before the holocaust. Those who did, did so as a result of heavy assimilation by their ancestors as a way of protecting themselves from being killed. Many changed their names, stopped practicing any form of the religion, lost their language and so on.

Exactly. Once Jews arrived in the UK in significant numbers, their cemeteries were only allowed to be on the very outskirts of cities. Ours is way out of the city centre overlooking the motorway. It's a real job to get there. My family lived in a ghetto in Lithuania. those who couldn't leave before the last pogrom were lined up and shot. The trauma in my family has rippled through the generations - grandma committed suicide, my grandpa had severe OCD and anxiety, two of his brothers committed suicide . Our current generation has lots with anxiety and depression. My late DM was in a constant state of near panic bless her. My Dad was subjected to horrendous antisemitism when he was conscripted. He wouldnt let us wear a star of David or any visible sign of our religion and would only whisper the word Jew once out of the house in case anyone heard. I've been informed my people killed Jesus , asked if my sort have souls and been bullied in the workplace. My DGD at 7 has already been subject to antisemitism and came home from school in tears. Luckily the school dealt with it immediately and very well. I used to occasionally wear a head covering but have stopped as I always got abuse from passing twats. Hijabi friends say the same. It's not a competition. Racism is racism and black , brown, Irish, Roma, Travellers, Jews and Chinese communities are all on the receiving end. And it's all totally horrendous.

Once these people are evicted from the party it can breathe again.
They are brain washed and so innerly twisted in their ideology they can't see properly.
Extreme right and left meet nicely in the middle and this is the perfect example.
I'm glad she's been outed and I wish these people would just clear off. Create their own extreme left party, get momentum and bnp joined up and leave normal main stream politics alone and give us back proper parties to choose from.

Well yes, there's a whole discussion to be had about where white ends and black begins (race being a social construct and all) but I think the point remains that many people here have a particular image of 'what Jews look like' that is very Eurocentric. Also that there are of course some Jews who are visually very distinctive - I mean the Chasids and other Orthodox groups- and face appalling street racism, and very many of them live in Diane Abbott's constituency.

Agree.

But let's not pretend blacks or Jews or the Irish are inherently better, or that it would have been any different had any of those groups happened to be the dominant group at those particular times in history.

Humans are inherently nasty and tribal and prone to cruelty and violence. All races and religions and tribes have the potential to behave appallingly.

Of course it's important to acknowledge and apologise and make reparations. But far more important imo is to avoid exploitation and abuse continuing. Why are we still selling arms, making trade laws that exploit developing countries, turning a blind eye to abuses that occur so that we can have cheap goods? Apologies ring empty unless we address what's happening today.

Yes... reason being most of them were dead, apart from anything else

Most Jews are not Israeli though. More jews live in the US than in Israel and the vast majority of those are of European descent. Most British Jews are white too.

Within Israel there's a split between European and other descent. Many middle Eastern people are white too of course (Iraqi, Iranian, Turkish, Afghans, Syrians....), they are not all Arabs.

So worldwide Jews are mostly white, within Israel it's probably 50 50

Excellent post @Elvis1956

Yep. So YABU. I’ll still vote Labour.

The only consistency is one percenters treating everyone else like shit.

Selling them, exploiting them, whatever. There are no ethical billionaires. Because you can't be a billionaire and be ethical.

And they laugh themselves silly, no doubt, at people squabbling about which race has it worse.

(sorry, possessed by the spirit of Karl Marx for a moment there)

In the UK I don't think there was any restriction on buses or voting for being either black or Jewish?

Her letter was ill judged as a minimum. I think she might be losing the plot. She herself gets hideous amounts of racist abuse - I guess her thinking is that a white Jewish person could blend in to some extent, if they want to, whereas for a black person there is no hiding your skin.

In the US things were and are much worse for black people and comparatively better for Jewish people. Not sure about Romany and Irish travellers. It seems she's got caught up in the US narrative a bit.

The comparison to red heads is bonkers.

I don't really see how it's antisemitic though? Unless it is seen as holocaust denial.

As a female cyclist in a northern city I sometimes feel a hint of that being the target that everyone loves to hate - some days I can't face it and walk instead, thankfully blending in with other non cyclists. I guess she's thinking along those lines.

Most Israelis are of Arab origin and are physically similar to the surrounding countries. It simply isn't true that the vast majority of Jews are white (or wealthy, or particularly clever).

There are different forms of racism, and we don't have to pick our favourites.

We need more understanding of anti black racism, not just as prejudice against people looking different, but as a systematic building block of our nationhood. The Empire was built on black people's backs, over hundreds of years, and has deeply shaped our national identity and individual psyches too.

Anti semitism has an even longer history, and is also deeply embedded in our national psyche. England was the first country to expel all its Jews, and the history of antisemitism is not just about Nazis - though the Nazis have certainly allowed many non-Jews to believe that.

Both types of racism have unique histories - as do those of Irish people and Romani. They also have lots in common, because after all racism finds a victim rather than difference creating the racism. It is really distasteful to use one to downplay another.

And Diane Abbott is not stupid and knew exactly what she was doing.

And I have been on MN for coming up to two decades and the antisemitism on here still surprises me.

I whole heartedly agree. I still can't believe in this day and age people don't recognise the extent of persecution Jews have gone through in history. You can mention an incident and then a hundred other less well known events occured alongside in other nations. It's harrowing.

She is a bloody idiot to undo her own career and also, be racist at the same time.

It's her own fault, so while she will get a pile on that letter was just a stupid racist thing for her to write. Yes she apologised but FGS, people will be disgusted.

No, she's not. Goldberg is not her birth name.