Diane Abbott

What term would you use for the specific oppression of black people that Diane Abbott describes? Slavery, apartheid, being treated as second class and excluded by culture and legislation from participating in society?

As soon as you say "anyone can experience racism" you take away the only word black people have to describe that oppression.

As a woman, at least when people say "anyone can experience sexism" I can say "but only women experience misogyny".

If a white person says to a Jew "anyone can experience racism", they can say "but only Jews experience anti-semitism"

I think Diane Abbott was extremely clumsy but I also think its important for black people to be able to talk about their oppression without the "racism can happen to anyone" line.

Unfortunately the vile Abbott reflects the thoughts of many people, as shown on this thread, who seem to think there is some kind of excuse for racism towards Jews and seem to think racism can only be against black people. People like @Coffeeandbourbons seem to be quite happy spouting racism against Jewish people.

I’m a white Jewish woman and I can see what she was trying to say. She may have expressed it clumsily but the racism experienced by someone black - where every encounter they have can be shaped by the colour of their skin - feels to me like it’s of a different order. Yes I’m Jewish, yes Jews have faced prejudice (and worse), but drawing an equivalence between racism and anti semitism always feels off to me.

Next you'll be telling me I don't understand antisemitism.

I can assure you that racism towards white people is a thing, we just rarely see it or hear about it.

I'm Jewish. However I am not a practising Jew. Even so, if Hitler was still around and rounding up Jews. He would also take David Baddiel who is an atheist.

Baddiel explains the whole race thing far better than I can. I suggest you read Jews Don't Count or watch the documentary which should be on All4

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/race-discrimination

According to the equality act race refers to ethnic origin too so yes under UK law Jewish is a race, so are Irish and Roma

If I was ungracious I would say you are parroting key themes the Tories are going to be majoring on in the very dirty next election - culture wars, because as sure as hell they aren't going to argue about their economic competency or fitness to govern.

Well then the Jewish Learning organisation looks daft as well doesn’t it?

Mariah Carey is 1/4 black: her father was mixed race.

I’m not sure, maybe you need to get in touch with the ancestry company. I just double checked online and it confirmed that Jewish is not a race - what’s more the only person who really pushed the idea that is is was Hitler.

You're making yourself look daft. European Jews were historically Ashkenazi, which is an ethnic group.

What position? She’s a backbencher with an incredibly loyal electorate, she’s got one of the biggest majorities in parliament. Added to which she’s highly intelligent with a degree from Cambridge. Sadly the poor woman seems to have completely lost the plot recently.

I beg to differ.
If you did you wouldn’t have made that statement

I recall her saying that there are too many white faces north of Watford.
Racist.

She also caused a furore by claiming white mothers were not as supportive as black women when it came to their children's education.
Racist again.

Labour's anti-semitism always shocks me.
6 million dead in the war and Abbott compares.it to prejudice against redheads. I have heard of attacks on Jewish people

Yes in theory although white English people are extremely unlikely to experience it and racism against white people isn’t really a thing; more of a possibility in theory.

But it’s only racism if the reason you’re being targeted is due to your race. If Jewish isn’t a race, and you’re being targeted for being Jewish, then how can it be racism?

I know exactly what racism entails, but thank you anyway.

I find the phrase “All black people….” Really offensive. Has she spoken to every black person on the planet before declaring to speak for all? Everyone has a different lived experience. She can talk about her own experience, the experience of people she knows and has spoken to. But how can you claim everyone has experienced the same as you because they have the same skin colour?

Think you may need to read up on what racism entails.

Anyone can experience racism. It does not matter what colour their skin is.

I’m not sure, maybe you need to get in touch with the ancestry company. I just double checked online and it confirmed that Jewish is not a race - what’s more the only person who really pushed the idea that is is was Hitler.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/are-jews-a-race/

Confirmed by My Jewish Learning.

"So if being Jewish is not a race, why does it show up in my DNA on my Ancestry results? Why are some genetic diseases more prevalent among Jewish people?

It's certainly not because of a religious belief. 🙄"

I love this reply. Spot on

@Coffeeandbourbons Jews are an ethno-religion. They (and Roma - Porajmos) were exterminated by Hitler because they were perceived to be racially inferior. Can't work out if you're trolling or just plain stupid.

But racism doesn’t mean ‘being killed in the millions’, that’s genocide.

Would you mind then defining for me exactly which ethnic groups can and can't be victims of racism. Maybe you could include a colour chart.

But racism doesn’t mean ‘being killed in the millions’, that’s genocide.

Mumsnet normally seems to be quite logical and intelligent but this thread really seems to be a case of emotion clouding everything. The word ‘racism’ now seems to be applicable according to how bad the abuse or bigotry is, rather than because it affects a race rather than a religious group.

This.

My Nan was very obviously Roma, Polish Roma at that. I've inherited my Grandads much lighter Irish Roma genes, meaning that I'm very fair skinned and blonde haired. But wow do I tan easily. I'm very proud of my heritage BTW, I'm pretty much completely Roma, even though the Roma I'm descended from is a mix of Irish, Polish and Italian origin in the last 3 generations. We may be settled but that is also literally in the last 2 generations, my Mum was born in a caravan.

Oh and my Nan would have had a field day if anyone called her a traveller. The use of traveller is a very recent thing, as far as she was concerned travellers were dirty, didn't clean up after themselves etc. But i do think she only thought of "new age travellers" rather than how many Irish Roma now describe themselves. We're gypsy, that's what she would say and gypsy's are clean.

We have the occasional post on our community forum when groups of Travellers have come to stay for a while warning people to be more careful of their dogs, make sure their sheds etc are locked. They stay up for a surprisingly long time, until a less prejudiced admin sees them.