Diane Abbott

By one definition, but not by all.

And this is what I mean about language. That definition is fine but then it can be used to stop black people talking about their specific experience as they don't have a term for it.

It almost like it's forbidden to talk about colour as a driver of prejudice. Which of course is racism in itself.

Saying that Jewish people have been not suffered from racism any more than people with red hair isn't innocent, clumsy or accidental.

It is a horrendous thing to say.

I'm not saying that the original article talks about Jewish people's experience of racism. I'm saying that Abbott wrote an response denying that Jewish people experienced racism but that they experienced prejudice of a nature akin to that experienced by red-headed people. It's awful that Abbott, and anyone else, has experienced racist abuse. But that doesn't give her a pass to be antisemitic.

Racism is about racial difference. Under British law being Jewish or a Traveller is a protected characteristic in relation to race.

I know nothing about her views generally so of course, she could be antisemitic. But I think this letter seems to be clumsy (quoting the original article) rather than deliberate?

The point is that people have the idea that there are factions within Labour with some very extreme, nasty views. If Abbott is prepared to go public with these views, what kind of views are being expressed behind closed doors?

Prejudice against who?
I feel like I'm missing something. Is it offensive or antisemitic to talk about black people's experience without mentioning the holocaust?

Is it offensive to consider antisemitism as separate to racism? Why?

I would define racism as being about colour so a visual marker. Antisemitism seems different as likely to affect Jewish people regardless of their visual appearance? Is that an antisemitic thing to say?

Large parts of the extreme left wing of the Labour Party like DA and Corbyn have held these views forever - the election of Corbyn supported by Momentum was a disaster allowing some of these ideas to become more mainstream

It's why I left

I am not a Diane Abbott fan but she has suffered awful racist abuse. And to me this seems the same. She must be "antisemitic" for pointing out the flaws in someone else's article.

She's made herself very comfortable with some truly awful antisemites over the last 40 years, so yes, her comments today are consistent with that and I'm personally quite convinced she holds deeply prejudiced views about Jews. And yes, she has suffered awful racist abuse (and misogyny) during that time. Doesn't make her bigotry OK.

@onirgellep

Sorry don't agree with your capture hypothesis

"Capture" was probably the wrong word. But the point holds that large parts of the left are suspicious of Jewish people and conflate Jewishness with the state of Israel. Corbyn and his Momentum henchmen certainly were steeped in this.

I’m really sad to see Diane Abbot has had to go this way after years of enduring the worst racist and misogynistic abuse. Really Starmer had no choice. She shouldn’t have worded it in the way she did but most people can understand what she meant. That Jews, Irish travelers and Romani can generally pass as white members of the population, where as black people and brown people simply can’t. Of course they shouldn’t have to ‘pass’ (ie. Not wear traditional dress etc) but they are not generally black and brown skinned so don’t experience the specific prejudice that comes with that. She should not have worded it as not being racism though. I’m sure if she was Boris no one would give a shite though.

So I go back to my original question.
How do black people talk about their unique oppression if they can't use the word racism?
Historically racism has been understood to mean oppression of black people by white people. Expanding that definition takes away black peoples ability to talk about that oppression.

@AdamRyan Quite easily - by not comparing it to the racism experienced by other minorities!! It's really that simple. No one has suggested they can't use the word racism. Your so-called hierarchy of racism is actually responsible for continued (and worsening prejudice and hate) against other minority groups.

Here's the Merriam definition of racism for you - which part of this do you think doesn't apply to how Nazis of the so-called 'master race' viewed Jews and their inferior non-Aryan traits (thereby justifying their extermination)? You know, that 'unique' as you keep putting it, oppression of one group over another...

a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

Your persistence is now just coming across as deep prejudice.

She is exactly how I describe her .I found everything she said extremely offensive.
No idea what you mean by
"racist old gits "?

The original article doesn't talk about the Jewish people's experience of racism. It basically says "white people experience racism too" with no commentary about what that means. The author lumped racist against jews/antisemitism with racism including verbal abuse against other non-black groups, to score points about "white people are victims too".

Using that measure red heads do experience racism as they get verbal abuse for it, based on the melanin in their skin.

You are basically arguing the same point as her. She made the mistake of using the same language as the title of the article. But she was arguing about the content.

I am not a Diane Abbott fan but she has suffered awful racist abuse. And to me this seems the same. She must be "antisemitic" for pointing out the flaws in someone else's article.

I think the other article is terrible. The author has made huge statistical flaws in his analysis to try to prove a point which is at best unhelpful.

Sorry don't agree with your capture hypothesis

She's always held these views ever since she joined the Young Socialists back in the 70s which was riddled with 'Trots' with similiar views on Israel

Totally agree, it’s ok for some politicians to be opening racist - right wing politicians that is. The media (and plenty of mumsnetters) will give them an easy ride.

I'm deeply offended just by her name being mentioned !

The woman is so unhinged it's unreal , how the hell she keeps getting re-elected as an MP is just beyond me

The Arabs also enslaved the people in Africa but apparently it was the right kind of slavery

No it's my personal view from seeing her speak and be interviewed

Sure there's perhaps excessive reporting of her gaffes and the tirade of misogynistic racist abuse on SM but I'm talking about something different

Her history degree mustn't have covered the Ottomans, who were quite the fans of shackling white-seeming people from the Mediterranean, Central and Eastern Europe, as well as plenty of black people from East Africa. The latter well into the twentieth century.

Historically and linguistically, only in America has racism been limited to white on black. In this country we have plenty of history of racism against Afro Caribbeans, Eastern Europeans, Chinese, Indians, Sub Saharan Africans, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Nepalese, Jews etc. Etc.

It is quite offensive that one group would monopolise the term and diminish the experiences of all the other victims.

And it isn't based on skin colour. Because the view derives from Critical Race Theory and the American legal system, some people will say some black people can't experience racism because their ancestors hundreds of years ago weren't slaves or experienced segregation in America.

Her remarks were so insensitive

Especially the bus comment.

Erm ... if someone writes a response to the article comparing Jewish people's experience of racism to the prejudice experienced by red-headed people they deserve a roasting. And, no, being a Black woman is not the trump card that absolves someone from criticism that you want it to be.

No the comment :

"And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships."

Is both factually incorrect and deeply offensive. At the height of slavery there were plenty of white people being manacled on slave ships being sent to Africa.