Diane Abbott

She framed her point by referencing racism in relation to black people ( pre civil rights US, place on bus, Atlantic slave trade) and then extrapolated from that position that other groups weren’t so badly affected ( in comparison to the black community), however that completely ignores how racism plays out on other groups for example the Holocaust on a different continent which was about the Jews and Roma.

Or the fact that travellers are so far outside of society that we haven’t even started to acknowledge their history. When did you see the same drip feed of outrage on the Guardian about travellers as you see from a person of colour’s perspective?

So, I think she frames her idea of racism in terms of a black experience and gauges others’ experiences alongside that. Which is really minimising others reality, in my view. How can you exclude the Holocaust?

A really shocking thing for her to do. Very sad.

No, I don't. What I do think (& this is what makes her a major liability to Labour IMO) is that a politician of her experience should be more than capable of making a statement which isn't capable of misinterpretation in this way or, if they are not, then not make a statement in the first place.

If Abbott stands down at the next General Election, it can only be to Labour's advantage. She may be a fine constituency MP for all I know, but generally speaking, the woman is useless and a godsend to the Tory Party.

Sorry but Diane Abbot has absolute form for this and there was nothing clumsy about her letter, she knew exactly what she was doing. She was an architect of the smear narrative now pushed by Corbyn's loyal and bullyish army, who like nothing more than to shout down Jews on social media with 'its a smear' (aka 'Jews are lying')
https://twitter.com/Daniel_Sugarman/status/1650128816793157633

The events you mention will never make the MSM because they don't fit the current agenda of those who pull the strings today

TBH, by the same rate, I wouldn't be surprised if many felt somewhat unsettled if medical professionals who shared this woman's view of the world approached them.

IIRC wasn't the far left narrative of DA's youth - sure you were treated badly in the holocaust but we gave you a nice new homeland where you'd be safe forever - and what do you do but start oppressing palestinians and behaving as badly as the nazis - you're hypocrites and don't deserve any sympathy

It's a long time ago and maybe that narrative has changed

she simply said unless the prejudice is aimed at a race (aka not Jewish people - according to Jewish authorities!) then it isn’t ‘racism’. I see no issue with that, and nobody has made a convincing argument otherwise.

No she didn’t just say that. Some Jewish people consider themselves a race, some don’t. Whether they are or not is a complicated issue because it is both a religion and something akin to an ethnicity.

Whether you consider antisemitism racism, or something slightly different but equally bad with equally serious consequences, is to some extent a semantic issue. Jews were killed during the holocaust because of their bloodline whether they practiced the Jewish religion or not. They were certainly treated as a race.

The point is Diane Abbott dismissed what Jews have experienced as being similar to what redheads have experienced. To justify this she wrote:

“In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus. In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote. And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships.”

This is staggeringly shocking considering Jews were killed in their millions, marked with a star, forbidden from entering certain areas, driven from almost every country across Europe, and expelled from England a thousand years ago. Today the jewish community have to have security at synagogues, and their graves are being desecrated. Many Jews cannot hide being born Jewish, they have Jewish surnames, visibly attend synagogues. They are considered Jewish by birth whether they practice or not. Many Jewish people do share genetic characteristics even though some do not.

Whichever way you look at it antisemitism is the same as racism and not just like “prejudice experienced by redheads” because they were never made to “sit at the back of the bus”.

For Diane to even say this in an initial draft is horrific and indicates there is antisemitism behind her views. Which as well as disgusting, is also very sad.

Quite. The next election will sadly be the dirtiest in British political history, and we all will be the losers.

Appreciate you pointing this out. Unfortunately, noticing/taking a comment out of its original context and responding to it is very much a problem in threads such as these.

And also I never said that all jewish people 'look alike' - only need to look at my jewish in-laws to see that

You're quoting me out of context

I was responding to someone saying that there are black jewish people too - and I simply pointing out that whilst that it is true even in Israel it's pretty rare to be black and jewish

And your casual comment, referenced up thread about why no one calls out the ethnicity / religion of rapists in Sweden that's not racist. ?

My mother had white blond hair and sapphire blue eyes. All my siblings have blue eyes. I have green eyes.

You've probably walked past lots and met lots who are Jewish, you just probably didn't realise it. Not all Jews look alike. Full. Stop. And conversations about characteristics, looks, eye, hair and skin colour rapidly descend into casual antisemitism.

Parties reflect society, much like the police do.

Racism in all its forms, exists across all parties, the Tories never had their investigation into Islamophobia did they?

Starmer has removed the whip, Abbott will be investigated and will likely never be a Labour MP again and thats correct.

I'm surprised you felt at home in the Labour party of the 90s, your politics is obviously a whole lot more left wing than your many anti Labour pro Tory posts would imply.

To be a Jew you can be genetically Jewish and or Jewish by religion. I could be born Jewish via my inherited genetics (which shows on dna testing eg Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi

Can I ask what you mean by genetically Jewish. I understand that the mitochondrial DNA with a specific variant shows that you have a female in your family history who was an Ashkenazi Jew

What does it mean to be genetically Jewish? | Family | The Guardian

There are going to be people who have that in their DNA and who don't think they are genetically Jewish as this could have been from a very long time ago.

The Left of the Corbyn era has worked itself up that its on the side of right, the workers, the people in need and has the very racist view of the Jewish trope of the greedy acquisitive moneyed Jew.....it is very very wrong and needs calling out....

Lets face it the next election is Labours for the taking at the moment, but they may just lose it if they continue like this as a really racist and misogynist party. And they need to work to regain the women's vote too....

But Abbott claimed that Jewish people did not suffer racism. They suffered prejudice in the same way that red-headed people do.

I still do not understand fully why the Left hates Jewish people so much but it is truly a shameful state of affairs

That seems to be a very sweeping statement about people.

There are a lot of people with left leaning views. People who know what has happened to Jewish people in the past, who know the history and who know how they are targeted now and the precautions that need to be taken.

@Coffeeandbourbons

"What history lesson?"

++++

Well for a start her comment that "at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships." Is factually incorrect.

At the height of slavery there were indeed very many "white seeming people " from Europe being taken from their homes by African slave traders and taken to Africa in manacles on slave ships.

Her lack of historical knowledge is shocking and only made worse by the fact she studied History at Cambridge.

It it really anti Semitic to say that people who look white are likely not to have experienced the level of racism black people have?

Yes there are some Jewish people who look brown. But in the main they look white. In the UK.

It's not the same thing. There is nuance.

DA has apologised and lost the whip.
What more should happen?

I know quite a few people who have done dna tests and they have come back with mostly Jewish but a little Cypriot, Greek, Turkish.
I think I might ask for a test for my birthday this year!

I understand why some less educated people don’t think that Jews are a race. However Dianne Abbot should know better, particularly with the targeting she has endured.
There is a stigma and lack of education around anything Jewish in the U.K. I think a lot of Jews also aren’t always keen to say that we are Jews, so it’s quite difficult for such a small minority to educate people when not all are willing to even advertise that they’re Jewish.

To be a Jew you can be genetically Jewish and or Jewish by religion. I could be born Jewish via my inherited genetics (which shows on dna testing eg Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi) although in judaism it is the Jewish status of the mother that determines a child being born a Jew. I could have converted to Judaism and have no genetic links. I may be black (mostly Ethiopian Jews) or white (mostly ‘passing’ Ashkenazi Jews).

I think that a lot of people identify or understand racism with skin colour, rather than actual race.

If you think that you aren’t racist or that you aren’t anti semetic have a look at David Baddiel book ‘Jews don’t count’. It’s available on audiobook format too if you aren’t a reader, it’s worthwhile.

DD has a school friend with blond hair, fair skin and blue eyes. She has two sisters with the same colouring My friend is a redhead with blue eyes. My partner has bright blue eyes and before he lost his hair it was black and very curly. Next door neighbour two kids with blue eyes - one with red hair, one with brown. All are Orthodox Jewish.

So there's at least one then!

Well I'm sure he's got family....

He was just one of the young guys that hung out with us. Nowadays it has a population of about 1000 people, so you don't get to meet everyone.....