"As a parent..."

And you can’t know if there’s a deeper emotion/ feeling that people who’ve had children feel

And YOU can’t know that what someone else already experiences without having to have kids isn’t just as deep as what you feel having had them. Because you can only speak for yourself, not anyone else.

The only thing indisputable is that nobody can truly know the depth of anyone else’s emotions.

Na. It's OK for someone to speak on their own feelings as a parent and not have to lengthen a sentence in case a small amount of people take issue with the fact that persons experience and emotions don't revolve around them.

If it had been phrased like this, for instance "While everyone must find this event horrifying, as a paent I also......" that would be OK.

@PussBilledDuckyPlait i have literally said nor suggested any of those things. It’s irrelevant if or why you choose (or don’t choose) not to have children.

The literal ONLY point I am making is that you cannot know that you wouldn’t change if you had children because you don’t have them. And you can’t know if there’s a deeper emotion/ feeling that people who’ve had children feel. The only people that can know are those who have not had and then had children. It’s a pretty simple and indisputable concept!

I understand why posters are saying that having a child the same age as a child who experienced a terrible situation enables them to draw comparisons. However a lot of people say ‘as a parent’ and then go on to discuss how they are distressed by a tragedy such as 911 totally missing the point that not only parents can feel empathy and loss in this situation and actually sisters brothers and wives experienced equal loss. There’s just something ‘top trumps’ about it and even though I am a parent I don’t like the phrase unless it’s used in a very specific sense to talk about parenthood (ie as a parent I don’t like the fact there aren’t any baby change facilities in x shop).

a point without children

This is where people aren't getting it - childlessness is not 'a point' in my life, it is my life. You are basing your comments on the fact that you, personally, changed as a person when you had children. It doesn't seem to have occurred to you that not everyone's emotional development through life will be the same.

You are not considering the reasons why people might choose not to have children; or the impact that wanting to but being unable to have children might have on a person's emotional development. You are taking one experience - your experience - and extrapolating it to everyone.

This phrase always annoyed me too. I am a parent now, and I still find the implication that childless people don't feel empathy as much, insulting. I'm sure it's not intended that way but I felt empathy, both before becoming a parent and "as a parent".

a point without children @PussBilledDuckyPlait

It really annoys me how people treat child free people as less emotional or sympathetic - some of the kindest people I know are child free

Thing is. If you read every single post on here really carefully you’d see that no-one has even suggested this. There are people arguing over nothing here. Guess that’s the internet for you

I absolutely agree. It really pisses me off. Police officers say it frequently when talking to the press. I'm like "What the fuck! You wouldn't be horrified/concerned/whatever, if you weren't a father/mother/parent/dog owner/car owner/gardener/whatever."

You're projecting your feelings on to her - you've no reason to assume she is being smug, she is just stating that she is a parent. As a parent you immediately think - what if this was my child - and it gives you a whole other perspective. That doesn't mean you are better, or think you are better, than people without children.

YANBU - I have recently had a baby and yes feelings do get heightened however not having a baby doesn’t mean you are less empathetic or upset by certain things.

It really annoys me how people treat child free people as less emotional or sympathetic - some of the kindest people I know are child free.

It’s impossible at this point in your life.

What 'point in my life' do you mean?

So in other words, for you, horrifying things are not particularly horrifying until they are something that could actually happen to you. Things that could only happen to other people don't bother you as much. Fair enough, but please don't assume everyone has such a narrow viewpoint.

That’s not what I said. But what I did say was there’s no point arguing as you can’t understand my viewpoint. It’s impossible at this point in your life. Just like men can’t understand what it’s like to be women, or why I can’t understand how it feels to be Asian. So why bother?

So in other words, for you, horrifying things are not particularly horrifying until they are something that could actually happen to you. Things that could only happen to other people don't bother you as much. Fair enough, but please don't assume everyone has such a narrow viewpoint.

I remember being a non parent and thinking I knew everything etc... Then I became a parent and realised what it's all about and what I dick I'd been.

I wish non parents (using a parenting forum) would stop acting like know-it all's and assuming they get parenting when they don't. Does it really matter if someone who is a parent has a different experience to you? Does it matter if they speak from experience? Does it matter to you that they feel differently about things that happen to a child because it rips at their heart in a different way than it rips at yours?

This thread is weird. It's a non issue. Leave the parents be, and let them say "as a parent.."

I always think that anyone who invokes "As a parent ..." must have be quite a shallow person & lacking in compassion, if they didn't feel intensely or upset at injustice etc etc before reproducing

But this is the thing. It’s not feeling intensely upset when you think about said thing happening to your child. It’s something beyond that.

It’s a different level of emotion which I am not sure is possible to articulate in language easily. And it’s nothing to do with empathy.

But we could argue this to the cows come home and it won’t be solved unless / until non-parents become parents and realise the difference!

Exactly this

She has a child she is worried about getting mugged. You don’t. That’s relevant surely

@ItsThePlayBusDingDing I think you've sort of made the same point which comes further down my post :)

Isn't that just human nature though and why is that a bad thing? We can't all care about everything or we would go crazy, but when someone we know and love is affected by something sometimes that brings it home to us.

I agree with this. I've always felt empathy when seeing children being harmed as I'm sure anyone would, but since having a child the feeling is much stronger.
I do also agree that many times I'm sure it's unnecessary.

I guess it's the same as if I say (as a white female) I can fully understand the situation faced by people of colour. There is a certain line of course - I can draw parallels to experiences in my life that would be similar, and I personally tick a lot of boxes on the 'othering list'. I can empathise and understand. But I haven't lived it, and there is still a difference in that - and 'as a woman' I get that no man will truly know what it feels like to be a woman. So it's the same thing. I get why parents say it. There is some truth in it.

That's a pretty daft comparison.

The vast majority of people who say "as a parent..." when there's a tragedy involved haven't experienced the tragedy themselves, they are just parents. They haven't actually been through anything similar, just the having a kid part,so they still haven't lived it.

For example there's a woman I vaguely know who has a daughter the same age my daughter would be if she hadn't died. Almost every time I see her she tells me that she hugs her daughter a little tighter every time she thinks of mine 🙄 she cannot possibly know what it's like to be me, she has her kid, I don't have mine, yet she thinks that she understands because we had babies at the same time.

I would agree that if someone is targeting teens in the area (for example) then there's that extra layer of worry if you have a teen, so potentially relevant in that sense, otherwise, not really.

I agree.

@EstherHazy I really like this post. I struggled with similar feelings because it’s true that I do not know what it is like to have a child. I can imagine, empathise, use my powers of imagination and knowledge to put myself in those shoes but I do not know for sure. So on that level, yes, the statement is correct (as is, the statement that I won’t know parental love).

But as you say, it’s the superiority that sticks in the craw. And just as I don’t understand what it’s like to read a horrible news story about a child as a parent, does not mean that parents understand what it’s like for me to read that story (or indeed anyone else). Nobody knows how anyone else feels or experiences anything. Childless people on these threads usually accept that principle, but parents usually do not.

Okay I posted further upstream how insulting the 'as a parent' thing is as a non parent because I have a lot of empathy and CAN understand the situation.

I've been thinking and a lot of people have posted sensibly and made me rethink.

I guess it's the same as if I say (as a white female) I can fully understand the situation faced by people of colour. There is a certain line of course - I can draw parallels to experiences in my life that would be similar, and I personally tick a lot of boxes on the 'othering list'. I can empathise and understand. But I haven't lived it, and there is still a difference in that - and 'as a woman' I get that no man will truly know what it feels like to be a woman. So it's the same thing. I get why parents say it. There is some truth in it.

I think the issue is it is often used in ways that invoke a sense of superiority - often unconsciously. And this is wholly different from people who speak from a minority or othered position and speak as a person from that position.

The particular case in point kind of illustrates this, because by the very same logic that those here who are saying 'people who aren't parents can't understand', those who ARE parents can't understand the situation being described here unless they've gone through the same process.