"As a parent..."

@fitzwilliamdarcy I mean it wouldn’t be a gene would it, that would make no sense in your argument.

@fitzwilliamdarcy @PussBilledDuckyPlait you’ve both obviously been through something and I am sorry. But parents who say they have an empathy/ connection with their child that a non parent cannot understand is not who you need to be focused on and angry about.

Yup. My parents were abusive but they weren’t sociopaths. Damaged people who had no business having kids, but that’s way more common than most people are comfortable admitting. Hence they’re all monsters, and the parent empathy gene theory is intact.

Mistreatment of children is not always in the extreme.

🙈🤷‍♀️

Or, in other words, there is no magic parental empathy injection; you can be an uncaring, neglectful or sociopathic parent without an iota of the empathy a non-parent might have.

If that is so, how do you explain those parents who mistreat or even murder their own children?

and writing stuff like this is when you know you’ve lost the debate! What about….(random extreme thing), what about, what about?

They are defective human beings. Sociopaths.

That's how.

If that is so, how do you explain those parents who mistreat or even murder their own children?

It doesn't mean you can't be sympathetic but as a parent when something happens to a child it hits your emotions differently

She is much much better now thanks. A gorgeous healthy 25 year old. But we are not so naive as to assume that she is completely recovered.

I think before then, having been a parent for almost all my adult life and probably a bit smug and superior about it, I would have said things like "as a parent". But that experience taught me that other parents don't understand how I felt then, they were just projecting my experience onto themselves and their children.

That was quite humbling for me and why I now hate the phrase.

I think you are overthinking this.

Dear God @coeurnoir, that is truly dreadful. I hope that your daughter is doing better now. I truly can’t imagine how difficult that must have been, and you really didn’t need friends like that!

@Mark19735
4th group: those who wanted kids but it didn't happen for them. These can mourn the lack of children in their lives but will not have them, and are not group 3.

Maybe you’re right @Mark19735. Maybe you have access to some deeper level of understanding and empathy through having children.

But I can’t imagine ever being so arrogant that I’d declare myself more empathetic than another group of people, and then say that group’s view on the matter was irrelevant. So swings and roundabouts.

I am a parent and agree. While I understand that parents have heightened emotions about certain events, it feels quite an insulting and needless thing to say. It has annoyed me when people have said it both before and after having my own children.

I maintain the perspectives of parents are more salient due to their innate understanding of the parent/child relationship - emotionally, legally, morally and in their daily lived experience.

What bollocks. I have an innate understanding only of my relationship with my own children. My daily experience is only of those children. Two of them.

I have been lucky in that neither have had any harm, however we had several years of my daughter fighting an eating disorder that threatened her life. Throughout that time my childless friends, and my sister, gave me unconditional support and love and, most importantly did not try and tell me they knew what I was going through.

Of my friends who were parents..

1. Did not come near us even though her daughter had been my daughters close friend since primary school. She banned her daughter from staying in touch with mine because she didn't want her daughter to be influenced by mine as hers was "highly sensitive and just so empathic" and obviously might catch an eating disorder

1. Told me that she understood what I was going through because her twins used to be fussy eaters. I kid you not.

1. Visited, phoned often and outwardly supported me and gave me a shoulder to cry on. Then told me one time, a particularly bad day when my daughters weight dropped to terrifying levels and she was very close to dying, that she was going home to give her children a tighter hug because she had spent the whole weekend imagining how it would feel if it was her daughter. She had two sons. She didn't have a daughter.

Which ironically is the same point that you made - e.g. the perspective of a retail worker on the rudeness of customers is more salient than that of other kinds of worker - so we agree.

Where did I say it was more salient? It was an example of where context can add relevance to a view - so it might be set against 'As a hotel worker, I think customers are becoming more polite' or 'as a call-centre worker I think customers are just as rude as they have always been.'

This is about (supposed) greater depths of feeling in parents.

I don't think parents feel more deeply in general, they just have specific feelings about an aspect of life, which is being a parent. But that doesn't make your feelings deeper across the human experience.

I haven't suffered from infertility, for example, and I wouldn't presume to tell someone who has that my feelings about it are as acute as theirs, even though I know what life was like before children. I know it's not the same thing.

Well ... to quote the OP "AIBU to think that it is not necessary to be a parent to be able to feel empathy/sympathy towards a child who has had a traumatic experience?"

So it is clear that "the topics" under discussion are the happenings of horrifying things to children, and I maintain the perspectives of parents are more salient due to their innate understanding of the parent/child relationship - emotionally, legally, morally and in their daily lived experience. Some parents may say their experience of parenthood has not deepened their emotional response to such topics, but overwhelmingly most do - and the feelings of non-parents towards this fact are irrelevant.

Which ironically is the same point that you made - e.g. the perspective of a retail worker on the rudeness of customers is more salient than that of other kinds of worker - so we agree.

The other thing is in news stories when someone has been killed (for example) and the first thing the newspapers say is “So and so, a mother/father of two, was tragically killed”

what they are really looking for is validation that their deeply felt, complex and nuanced thoughts on a topic are of equal value as if they were parents

Incorrect. This isn't about 'thoughts on a topic'. This is about (supposed) greater depths of feeling in parents.

'Thoughts on a topic' is a completely different issue, where it's far more likely your life experiences will indeed add value or ease of interpretation to your observation.

For example, in comments such as 'As a parent, I think standards of education are falling' or 'As a non-parent, I don't object to children in restaurants' or 'As a retail worker I think customers are becoming ruder' it's perfectly reasonable to state your qualification or perspective. That is not what we are discussing here.

What a fabulously patronising post, @Mark19735. The empathy parents have for their poor sad dysphoric lessers is wondrous to behold.

Society does venerate motherhood. There's no point pretending it doesn't. (Well, some types of motherhood. Single mothers don't seem to attract the same level of veneration, but that's a different thread). Even the name of this forum, for parents, singles out the mums and gives them pride of place. And quite right, too. Mums do an awesome job.

Now, people who aren't parents fall into three categories. 1) Those who aren't parents yet, but hope or expect to become parents one day. 2) Those who haven't become parents so far and fear they may by losing the chance to change this - and are upset by it. And 3) those who feel they don't ever want to become parents and are OK with it. These categories aren't immutable, and people may move between them during their lives. But they are mutually exclusive and exhaustive.

Let's be honest ... groups 1 and 3 aren't the ones jumping on these threads and complaining. Those that genuinely are OK with things, are - by definition - OK with things. They have no envy or jealousy of parents, and feel no hurt about the tone of parent-y type conversations. Their lives are busy and full with other occupations and concerns. Those that haven't yet faced the spectre of their waning fertility and the disappointment of not fulfilling their wish to become a parent aren't coming and posting here either. Its group 2. And they aren't OK with it. They are hurting, and most people need a long time to find and accept an alternative role in a society that they know venerates motherhood, and which they fear won't venerate them. Especially if they are also ordinary in other regards. With luck, they will find a path to acceptance and will eventually become comfortable in Group 3, but right now they clearly aren't there yet and they are looking for ways to heal. Coming onto Mumsnet and railing at parents is a pretty cack-handed way of doing it, for sure - but what they are really looking for is validation that their deeply felt, complex and nuanced thoughts on a topic are of equal value as if they were parents. As such, it has much in common with dysphoria, as does their online behaviour.

That could just indicate you are quite a shallow person, incapable of sympathetic imagination about anything outside your direct experience.

Which is exactly what I think when I see "as a parent" written or said. It's also rather selfish because it is admitted they can only empathise by imagining it is about their child. Wow.

Exactly what fitzwilliamdarcy said below.