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Original poster

Paying cleaner when off

136 replies

MagicMatilda · 09/04/2023 20:53

DH and I are in a disagreement…our cleaner is taking 3 weeks off for surgery in June.

I think we should still pay her but DH thinks we shouldn’t.

What would you do? Thanks

OP posts:
Morningcoffeeview · 11/04/2023 09:47

ive never thought to pay my cleaner when she’s off. She’s pretty good but I have often suspected she isn’t ill when she’s said and is actually at her other, PAYE job. Or I drive past and see her car at her house/not at her house which doesn’t accord with what she’s told me - like she’s stuck at work 😂 (she doesn’t know but I pass her house on my way to work).

She’s been off for cosmetic surgery too - I wouldnt pay for that.

nomoredriving · 11/04/2023 09:09

@Hoppinggreen to be honest, I probably didn't pay sick or holiday for the first three years, so I suppose by then she'd more than proved het value.

Hoppinggreen · 11/04/2023 08:14

nomoremerlot · 10/04/2023 18:00

You see I think it depends what sort of self employed?

Do you do one off jobs for people, or do a job every week for them, like a cleaner?

Show quote history

DH has 3-12 month contracts and I used to have 6-12 months ones .

Lilyofthevalley23 · 11/04/2023 08:12

BelleMarionette · 09/04/2023 21:15

I have heard that legally you can get yourself in trouble by paying when sick, if someone is self employed, as this can be argued that you are treating them as employed. This obviously has tax implications.

It's tough as usually self employed people don't get paid when off or sick, but cleaners are on a low hourly rate.

I agree with others that have said you shouldn't. It is one of the flags that HMRC will look at if they suspect employment. Employment doesn't have to be full-time - once a week is sufficient and if they are paid whether or not they do the job, the are effectively employed as you have taken the riske element away.

jannier · 10/04/2023 20:25

Cosyblankets · 10/04/2023 18:30

Think round here is about 14. North West. And I know what you're saying yes I charge more than a cleaner but that doesn't mean I can afford to pay someone to do nothing and then pay someone else to actually do the job

Show quote history

Even 14 would be way below minimum wage when you factor in down time, travel and not being booked 8 hours a day so really not fair to compare to most self employment regardless of what you can afford. I'd personally if she's fit enough ask for a deep clean before hand and make do with what I can keep on top of myself then pay her a percentage of not all....assuming you get a cleaner once a week it's not a lot to pay but would put food on her table or turn the heating on for a few hours.

jannier · 10/04/2023 20:13

Craftybodger · 10/04/2023 18:19

For illness I might pay half as a good will gesture. I consider breast reduction to be cosmetic and wouldn’t pay her while off.

I guess you're not carrying an extra stone or more on each bra strap suffering neck, shoulder and back pain that causes migraines or the open sores you get under the band from rubbing then.

nomoremerlot · 10/04/2023 19:41

TwoThousandZeroZeroPartyOverOopsFoundMoreTime · 10/04/2023 19:39

HMGov U.K. clarifies this

www.gov.uk/employment-status/selfemployed-contractor

OP would be muddying the waters

I'm happy with my decisions.

TwoThousandZeroZeroPartyOverOopsFoundMoreTime · 10/04/2023 19:39

HMGov U.K. clarifies this

www.gov.uk/employment-status/selfemployed-contractor

OP would be muddying the waters

Original poster
MagicMatilda · 10/04/2023 19:14

She has a weeks holiday later this month and that I won’t pay her for. I give her a Christmas bonus and little present at Easter which she really appreciates. I know she won’t be expecting to be paid.

OP posts:
Original poster
MagicMatilda · 10/04/2023 19:12

Yes, she is suffering with them and is getting it done on the NHS. She has been waiting a long time to have it sorted out. It’s not cosmetic for her.

OP posts:
WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 10/04/2023 19:10

I consider breast reduction to be cosmetic and wouldn’t pay her while off.

Surely it depends on the extent? If it's just wanting a more streamlined look, it may be cosmetic; but if somebody is suffering from debilitating back pain, not so much.

nomoremerlot · 10/04/2023 19:04

@Cosyblankets if she's had three months sick leave in total in the past 8 years, I'd be surprised.

But hypothetically, I'd pay up to three months.

nomoremerlot · 10/04/2023 19:02

@TwoThousandZeroZeroPartyOverOopsFoundMoreTime

Nope, none of that.

I'll await a call from HMRC, when they discover she's been on her holibobs and I've paid her that weeks wages!

GrinGrinGrinGrin

TwoThousandZeroZeroPartyOverOopsFoundMoreTime · 10/04/2023 18:46

nomoremerlot · 10/04/2023 09:35

I pay my cleaner sick pay and holiday pay.

Do you pay her via payroll and register yourself as an employer with HMRC for hee NI and tax? You are muddying the waters bwtwwwn employee ana self employed and if you muddy the waters you could be held liable by HMRC for unpaid tax if she hasn't paid it

By all means gift some money but don't pay sick or AL for a self employed cleaner

GarlicGrace · 10/04/2023 18:41

I always paid when the cancellation was my fault - holiday or illness - but not when it was their holiday. However, I never had to deal with an extended time off for health reasons or an pandemic. I'd be inclined to offer half pay or, preferably, book her to do a massive deep clean that will take 3 times as long.

If this is a medically needed reduction, her back must be killing her doing that work. DH should have some sympathy! And learn how to use the hoover.

TwoThousandZeroZeroPartyOverOopsFoundMoreTime · 10/04/2023 18:37

No I wouldn't pay her, she's self employed and not providing the service whilst she's off. She doesn't get AL , pension or sick pay and will have charged her rates accordingly (ie higher hourly rate than a directly employed person gets)

Thighlengthboots · 10/04/2023 18:34

BelleMarionette · 09/04/2023 21:15

I have heard that legally you can get yourself in trouble by paying when sick, if someone is self employed, as this can be argued that you are treating them as employed. This obviously has tax implications.

It's tough as usually self employed people don't get paid when off or sick, but cleaners are on a low hourly rate.

I agree- you need to be careful with this. If you treat them as an employee then all their wages need to go through the PAYE system and HMRC will see it as tax evasion if you dont do so. There needs to be very strict boundaries when someone is self employed and responsible for paying their own tax and essentially paying them "sick pay" even if you dont see it as that is an employee benefit.

Cosyblankets · 10/04/2023 18:34

nomoremerlot · 10/04/2023 18:31

No @Cosyblankets me and DH would do
It badly between us!

Why do you ask?

Because 3 months is a long time so I just wondered what you'd do

nomoremerlot · 10/04/2023 18:31

No @Cosyblankets me and DH would do
It badly between us!

Why do you ask?

Cosyblankets · 10/04/2023 18:30

jannier · 10/04/2023 18:05

Can you compare your self employment with a cleaner rates wise? Most can't set their own rates as there is a ceiling customers pay and then they have to travel between jobs so don't get paid a full 8 hours a day even if they are as full as they can be. I thought the going rate was around £10 an hour but don't know as I can't afford one....

Show quote history

Think round here is about 14. North West. And I know what you're saying yes I charge more than a cleaner but that doesn't mean I can afford to pay someone to do nothing and then pay someone else to actually do the job

Cosyblankets · 10/04/2023 18:26

nomoremerlot · 10/04/2023 17:50

I would pay up to three months.

Show quote history

And who would clean in the meantime? Would you pay someone else?

Craftybodger · 10/04/2023 18:19

For illness I might pay half as a good will gesture. I consider breast reduction to be cosmetic and wouldn’t pay her while off.

Viviennemary · 10/04/2023 18:08

I might in this case if I could afford it. If it's a face lift I wouldnt though.

jannier · 10/04/2023 18:05

Cosyblankets · 09/04/2023 21:07

I'm not sure what I think about this. Most self employed people factor in that they don't get paid when off when they set their hourly rate. I'm self employed and I don't expect to be paid when I don't work.
Somehow on here people seem to pay an awful lot of money for people to do nothing. If it's a cleaner you've either got to clean your own house or pay someone else to do it.

Can you compare your self employment with a cleaner rates wise? Most can't set their own rates as there is a ceiling customers pay and then they have to travel between jobs so don't get paid a full 8 hours a day even if they are as full as they can be. I thought the going rate was around £10 an hour but don't know as I can't afford one....

nomoremerlot · 10/04/2023 18:00

Hoppinggreen · 10/04/2023 17:55

She’s self employed presumably so no, I wouldn’t pay her.
I have been SE myself and DH is now and we have both only ever been paid for actually working.

You see I think it depends what sort of self employed?

Do you do one off jobs for people, or do a job every week for them, like a cleaner?