To think that some Mumsnetters hate men?

I don't hate men but I do feel that they place a lot of restrictions on my life. Every single incident of violence, sexual violence or harrassment that has affected me adversely has been from a man. Every time.

• I can't go out for a walk at midnight, or after dark really. Why? Because of men. I can imagine a world where I could go out any time, and it is so freeing. It would be incredible.
• I can't leave my drink at a bar, I need to take it into the loo with me. Why? Men.
• On a bus, I don't sit upstairs and I make sure to sit by the driver. Why? Groups of men.
• Going into a car park, I always assess who is in there. Why? Men. I was assaulted on a car park.

There are so many, many examples, those are only a few. It can be terrifying. I don't want to live my life not living, or altering things, but realistically I have to. The town centre which I live near to is simply not safe enough on an evening, after dark. It isn't women I'm afraid of. It's borne out of the experiences I've had with men, some worse than others. It's thinking things would be OK and venturing out, to have a friend of a friend put his hands down my jeans and try to put them into my underwear and then to make out it was my fault because they're low cut and 'falling off' (they weren't). It's the constant low level of threat. So no, I don't hate men, and I have some friends who are men. But I do hate some men, and more than anything, I hate that I have to alter my life and I can't be free to do all of the things I really want to do. And the reason is men.

Your view is that women as a class oppress, and have historically oppressed, men as a class.

Okey dokey

All oppression is bad, by all people who indulge in it. Whether that’s toxic misogynists, racists, or MN sexists. MN is peculiar though because discrimination seems to be acceptable.

Why are men always compared, by some people, to oppressed classes, rather than oppressors.

I’m just questioning which forms of discrimination are acceptable and which aren’t. I don’t think racism, sexism, homophobia or any discrimination or acceptable in civilised society. You?

Classic.

I’m just questioning which forms of discrimination are acceptable and which aren’t. I don’t think racism, sexism, homophobia or any discrimination or acceptable in civilised society. You?

That's stupid and really racist of you, Always, to draw an instant parallel between black people and toxic, misogynist men. Racist to use black people as your 'aha!' moment. It doesn't work.

I think it's the opposite. Single dads, male teachers and men doing some washing up are fawned over.

pump thanks for the chat. I can't be bothered anymore. Clearly we're from different planets and must agree to disagree.

I can believe you don’t understand it, Eckhart. It involves a fair bit of critical thinking.

Do you really think that’s what that post says? Is it worth me explaining it to you in easier language? Or are you just pretending?

I didn't say that. I said something else, and either you or someone else inferred that, then called me stupid for the inference.

Yes, I read it. I just can't believe that anybody would say they were OK with being called a child abuser. If you're ok with that, I have no idea how to comprehend your standpoint here. I was already struggling!

You said other people believe that.

Maintaining a stance isn't 'clinging' to anything. If it is, are you still clinging to your point of view?
men who don’t do enough to combat rape are rapists I have neither said nor believe this.

Loads of men joke about it :/ it's a common theme.

Strangely and coincidentally I was getting some books to swap for book Day. FIL is always giving her random books from charity shop, I thought don't recognise this and flipped through. It was a joke book and the first joke I read was about a man strangling his wife. Flipped again, joke about how awful wives are. Flipped again, another one. I was wtf. It was a Harry hill thing from only a few years back. Jokes about teachers as well so think aimed at kids.

Do you really never hear jokes about rape, murder of women? The men at my work who are all v nice make references to drugging women hahaha. This stuff is common!

I sometimes wonder how people seem to inhabit such different worlds, notice such different stuff.

Did you read my post Eckhart? Here it is, if you missed it, where I answered that question already:

Are we having the ‘men who don’t do enough to combat rape are rapists’ conversation AGAIN Eckhart? Are you still clinging to that?

Aside from that, yes - I am absolutely happy to take responsibility for child abuse and to do my very best to stop it. I will never abuse a child. I will never joke about it. I will never not believe a child. I will never for a second think child abuse, in any form, is justified. I’m absolutely happy with that stance, yes.

You're happy to be called a child abuser, pump?

are men and women fundamentally "different" ?. In the context of this discussion, one difference is that men, as a sex, commit much more violence than women. As things stand, I’d say it is a fundamental difference. Not acknowledging this means little is done about it.

I literally have no idea what you are going on about.

I think you do, Hooves. I think I’ve been pretty clear. The problem is that you can’t argue with the logic of ‘how we condemn bad things in society, and how men aren’t doing enough condemning of sexism’.

You are so lucky not to know a single man in your entire life who makes sexist jokes. Very, very lucky. Not even one, not even once.

They are good examples of good people being good people, aren’t they? Which leads to the excellent conclusion of ‘child abuse in all forms is wrong, and we won’t stand for it’. Now imagine if men thought like that about sexism against women. All those good men. All those good things.

Pumperthepumper

I literally have no idea what you are going on about.

You started this by saying that good men should take responsibility for bad men.

Now you are saying that women take responsibility for other women by supporting abortion and refuges - but this isn't taking responsibility in the way you said men should take responsibility and so it makes no sense to raise it in this context.

Then you go on to say that eg you take responsibility for women who commit child abuse by not doing it, by not joking about it, by not justifying it - well, err great. But again, I don't know any men who commit murder, or rape or child abuse, who joke about any of those of who justify them. So I do not get the point that you are making.

That to me is not an example of a good person (man or woman) taking responsibility for what a bad person does. That's an example of a good person being a good person.

So you are happy to be viewed as a child abuser, because you are a woman, pump ? Because many abused children are abused by women. You're comfortable to be viewed that way? To take that level of responsibility? Because that's the level we're talking about: direct suspicion and accusation of being an abuser, despite your innocence.

Are we having the ‘men who don’t do enough to combat rape are rapists’ conversation AGAIN Eckhart? Are you still clinging to that?

Aside from that, yes - I am absolutely happy to take responsibility for child abuse and to do my very best to stop it. I will never abuse a child. I will never joke about it. I will never not believe a child. I will never for a second think child abuse, in any form, is justified. I’m absolutely happy with that stance, yes.

No, I don’t mean not committing the crime - I mean condemning sexism against women in all its forms.

Abortion rights aren’t about taking responsibility for bad women, they’re about taking responsibility for womenkind. I thought that was clear. I then went on to say how we take responsibility for Bad Women, using your example of child abuse.

You are very lucky to not know one single man in your family, extended family, colleagues, neighbours, school friends, friends of friends, any man in your life who doesn’t go so far as to even make a sexist joke. Suspiciously lucky, in fact.

So you are happy to be viewed as a child abuser, because you are a woman, pump ? Because many abused children are abused by women. You're comfortable to be viewed that way? To take that level of responsibility? Because that's the level we're talking about: direct suspicion and accusation of being an abuser, despite your innocence.

Pumperthepumper

How is supporting abortion rights or setting up refuges an example of good women being responsible for bad women, because that's what we are talking about.

You go on to say that I take responsibility for child abuse by not doing it, not making jokes about it etc etc etc - well I don't know of any men who do that either, so therefore that must be examples of good men taking responsibility and yet you're determined to argue that this doesn't happen.

If by taking responsibility you mean don't commit the crime then sure, I guess. I don't see "not committing a crime" as taking responsibility for the people who do though.