Trying to understand everyday views on sex and gender discussions

[Schallern]

Hi,

I hope this is the right place for this post.

I am a bisexual female and have been friends for years with a very liberal, LGBT crowd. Past “trans women are women”, I never questioned anything.

I’m in my mid to late 20s now and I’ve recently expanded my social circle. As a result of this and moving away from purely LGBT spaces, I’ve had a lot more exposure to a wider range of political and social opinions.

A big one of these is the realisation that my previously, narrower social circle was very much an echo chamber. We just accepted everyone. That is lovely in some senses, but I also understand the world isn’t that simple.

Thing is, I’m struggling to even work out my feelings.

I’ve been taught that anything less than fully accepting trans people as the gender they want to present as is transphobic.

I suppose in my mind the two sides are a) complete acceptance and b) complete denial and erasure of trans-people and outright transphobia.

I’m interested in what exists in the middle. What do normal, everyday, people believe? What is the most “common” view on trans issues? Outside of my own echo chamber, where does the line lie?

I understand this forum leans very heavily in one direction. However, that’s why I’m asking here. Do you discuss trans issues with your friends and own social circles? Does it even come up? What kind of conversations do you have?

I suppose I’m trying to get a gist for what “acceptable” opinions are outside of my own social scene. Like I said, it’s just “trans women are women.” Anything less is considered erasure and denial and would have an individual cast out!

Happy to answer any questions. I’m trying to think more critically and actually work out what my own opinions are. And please note that whilst I have obviously described myself as coming from a very liberal background, I’m very open to hearing views as I no longer know what mine are. It’s amazing how quickly things change once you’re in the “real world.”

Anyway, I will be back tomorrow. Dinner time and then football for our house.

I'm talking about the membership as a whole. It isnt spoken about here because women here don't give a shit about women in prison. And going by the other threads about prison conditions, a good number of people think it should have inhumane conditions to punish the inmates.

The actions of the membership show female prisoners are of no importance to them.

Where have I said I don’t care about women prisoners being harmed by anyone else, @Lexibletheflexible? It is ridiculous to make unfounded claims like that.

I care about all women having single sex spaces. I believe that nothing can be done to help women if the word woman doesn't mean female people but also includes some men. If I said I'm running a charity for dogs but spent all the money I raised on cats donors would be pretty miffed. To help women, in prisons, in the work place, in the street, in the home, anywhere, everywhere we need to be able to define who women are so it's a pretty vital step.

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt, because maybe you don’t know about the history of MN:

For a very long time, this was the only place - on the internet, and sometimes at all - where women could congregate and talk about the effect of gender ideology on women without being immediately shut down, kicked out, cancelled, threatened or in some other way stopped from talking. Naturally, therefore, this place has a vast number of conversations about gender ideology and women - because this was the one place we could do so.

Talking about female prisoners and their needs, wants and rights - as well as many other issues surrounding women that do not have anything to do with gender ideology - don’t get as much attention here, because frankly we can talk about them anywhere. No one will shut us down or threaten our livelihoods or our children if we do. So, I would suggest that the fact that you are not finding such conversations here is not because such conversations are not being had by people who post here, but rather that people have those conversations elsewhere, and come here for a very specific reason.

Now, you can believe me or not - you seem predisposed to not, but I can’t do more than I have to persuade you.

What membership? What are you even talking about?

Mumsnet has millions of users. Lots of different boards.

You've landed on the board that was created for women (feminists mostly) to discuss sex and gender issues, and appear to have a big problem with the fact we are discussing this issue in relation to prison.

Just baffling.

Exactly. This poster has absolutely nothing. Zero logical or reasoned argument as to why we should exclude women in prison from single sex spaces. Why on earth would we? It’s just an impulse to scold women here for whatever reason.

Why is there this flawed claim that unless women are discussing prison issues on a discussion forum they are faking their care for female people in prison?

What other issue is this true of?

That all people campaigning for an issue or involved in support must post about it on a public forum or they don’t care about it. That they must air their backgrounds before they can be considered honestly interest and engaged in real life?

This is yet another attempt to silence discussion and shame women and it is as weak as the ‘both sides’ argument and labelling groups ‘fundamentalist’ to shame them for their legitimate stance that has been supported by the Supreme Court clarification in April 2025.

If you cared more about women in prison than the sad plight of men who identify as women being excluded from women’s spaces, you wouldn’t even be on this thread on the sex and gender board which is clearly about women’s single sex spaces, you’d be discussing all the things you think are more important somewhere else. So im not buying it.

It is. 1/10

Remembering of course too, that at the same time we are told we don’t care enough, we are also shamed at the same time for being ‘obsessed’ if we do focus on a set of issues.

This really is just a distractive and discrediting tactic. One that doesn’t even stand up to logic or relevancy when you consider safeguarding principles.

What if someone said to this poster, “I think you’re wrong focussing on prisons, most people aren’t prisoners and here is what they care about”? Would that be ok?

“Women in prison are a fraction of the population, you need to direct your advocacy towards domestic violence victims who make up a much larger group, otherwise I’ve decided you don’t really care about women at all, just your agenda”.

"You're Bad Wrong People, now let me come up with a squirrel an excuse for my statement!"

Absolutely @Kucinghitam heres to the WSOH 🍻

They were on here a week or two ago wanging on with the same moan. By their evasive answers they are a obviously full on TWAW. They can't argue the case to put men in women's prison so use this argument as a distraction

I think the derail has been helpful in addressing the OP, if they ever return.

OP asks, "What do normal, everyday, people believe?"

I don't like the word "normal" particularly, in this (or any!) context, but think it's pertinent here.

Frankly, most "normal, everyday" people don't tend to assume that others are motivated entirely by ruthlessness, cruelty and prejudice (as in, "you don't give a shit about female prisoners at all", from recent pages).

Instead, they tend to assume that others with different views to them may have some grounds for those ("I can see where you're coming from with this", "I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt", "doesn't stand up to logic when you consider safeguarding principles" etc., also from recent pages).

This is less and less the case in our polarised world, of course, but as long as we can cling on to that normal standard of listening to what each other is saying, the better.

I think most posters on this thread fall into the "normal, everyday" category, OP. The kind of extremes you describe - complete acceptance or outright transphobia - tend to reflect the prejudices of one side far more than what the other is actually saying.

@Lexibletheflexible - simple question - should any woman be locked up with a violent man? It’s a yes or no question.

Fully agree with your assessment @PrettyDamnCosmic

You can't really think anyone on this forum believes you are a woman.

Jonathan Willoughby uses "Gender Criticals" a lot. He also describes himself as a "cis" woman.