Trying to understand everyday views on sex and gender discussions

[Schallern]

Hi,

I hope this is the right place for this post.

I am a bisexual female and have been friends for years with a very liberal, LGBT crowd. Past “trans women are women”, I never questioned anything.

I’m in my mid to late 20s now and I’ve recently expanded my social circle. As a result of this and moving away from purely LGBT spaces, I’ve had a lot more exposure to a wider range of political and social opinions.

A big one of these is the realisation that my previously, narrower social circle was very much an echo chamber. We just accepted everyone. That is lovely in some senses, but I also understand the world isn’t that simple.

Thing is, I’m struggling to even work out my feelings.

I’ve been taught that anything less than fully accepting trans people as the gender they want to present as is transphobic.

I suppose in my mind the two sides are a) complete acceptance and b) complete denial and erasure of trans-people and outright transphobia.

I’m interested in what exists in the middle. What do normal, everyday, people believe? What is the most “common” view on trans issues? Outside of my own echo chamber, where does the line lie?

I understand this forum leans very heavily in one direction. However, that’s why I’m asking here. Do you discuss trans issues with your friends and own social circles? Does it even come up? What kind of conversations do you have?

I suppose I’m trying to get a gist for what “acceptable” opinions are outside of my own social scene. Like I said, it’s just “trans women are women.” Anything less is considered erasure and denial and would have an individual cast out!

Happy to answer any questions. I’m trying to think more critically and actually work out what my own opinions are. And please note that whilst I have obviously described myself as coming from a very liberal background, I’m very open to hearing views as I no longer know what mine are. It’s amazing how quickly things change once you’re in the “real world.”

He needs to be in a locked mental health facility. A male one.

Please could you explain what you mean by this.

Do you think they should be mixed sex or not, and if so why?

It is possible to care about both. You're in a thread about transgender people. Naturally in such a thread the focus is going to be on the threat posed to imprisoned women by incarcerating them with transgender men. In a thread about prison reform or the rights of prisoners, you'd find other issues also being discussed. ]

Even if it's true that the threat to women prisoners from transwomen prisoners is small, it is not non-existent, and compared to the bigger issue you raise, it is easily solved. No men in women's prisons. Sorted. Now let's tackle the big problem.

'Imagine'.

We prefer data and evidence.

Men are responsible for 99% of all sexual assaults.

(Well evidenced from plenty of sources, but here's one for example:

https://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/accuracy-criminal-statistics-matters

The evidence that female prisoners routinely suffer various forms of abuse in jail exists. A lot of people just think that is what jail is for so they don't really care about prisoner welfare.

Yes but when there are 25 threads and elenvtybillion mentioned of female prisoners in relation to trans women, and maybe two mentions of their welfare in relation to those other factors that are more commonly a problem for said prisoners, it kind of gives away the game.

If you could point to many threads on female prisoners, their outcomes and welfare that are not focused around trans woman, please link them.

I think the point is more that the abuse was from a male fellow prisoner.

It is certainly true that women are abused by staff, but staff are supposed to be vetted.

There is a risk from other prisoners, but by their nature, there is a limit to the amount of vetting that can be done.

Men are more physically dangerous to women than other women, but if you disagree or don't think that is relevant, how are you choosing which men can be housed in the women's estate, and why not just make prisons mixed?

I made one yesterday.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5554316-women-migrants-at-risk-of-harm-from-males-at-dungavel?reply=153549205

This one from a few days back:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5552676-supporting-women-in-prison

The Farage gambit.

Claim that scrutiny of an argument is attack.

There are plenty of threads about women in prison, we discuss it on here often enough.

and yes, violent male criminals being housed wtih them is discussed frequently. Because its insane.

Show me 3 threads where you discuss the treatment of female prisoners without it being focused on trans women. I'll take any over the last decade.

Can you point to these threads because there is nothing attacking in the post you quoted.

The OP was criticised for starting it by many posters who turned it back into a debate on trans women in women's prisons.

Advanced search and google are available to you. I'm not your PA.

I have advanced search this, that's the thing. That is why i know there aren't. All the people here are interested in trans women, not female prisoners

"it kind of gives away the game."

If this isn't attacking, perhaps you could explain what you mean by this?

Instead of explaining why you think some men should be in women's prisons you are attacking the sincerity of those arguing that prisons should be single sex.

I find this more frustrating than anything else. Whether or not I agree that women want more privacy in toilets and so fully enclosed cubicles, it is an assertion that makes sense. However I am yet to understand the argument for mixed sex single sex services.

It means it gives away your objective which is to keep trans women out of female spaces. Your objective has nothing to do with improving female prisoners outcomes and experiences.

What also gives the game/your objective away is that despite me saying clearly that I dont think prisons should be more mixed and I'd remove male staff from female prisons, you are still transfixed on the idea that I want (more) trans women in female prisons. Can you see how that makes you seem fixated beyond reason? When you can't even read and absorb words because you are so incensed that a woman MIGHT have a different opinion to you?

You realise migrants arent criminally convicted or remanded prisoners, right????

And surprise, surprise, @Schallern has not been back to the thread.

This board was set up to discuss the effects of TRA. Is it surprising when the focus is on trans?Also, its a parenting site. Generally the focus will be on parenting issues. Its not a place where prison conditions would be discussed generally.

I dont know why anyone would be suspicious of publicity around men attacking women in prison. Are you saying its inevitable, therefore shouldn't make the news, or it didn't happen?

We know prisons arent as safe as the should be, but when an obvious safeguarding fail has been allowed to happen, of course it gets publicity.

Twaddle.

Nope. Do the search yourself and see. Never a care other than to maybe suggest their conditions should be harsher.

You realise Dungavel is an immigrant detention centre, right?????

Immigrants, even those in detention centres, aren't prisoners... they aren't people convicted of a crime! Can you show threads on female prisoners? Or is this one about migrant men the nearest you have?