Trying to understand everyday views on sex and gender discussions

[Schallern]

Hi,

I hope this is the right place for this post.

I am a bisexual female and have been friends for years with a very liberal, LGBT crowd. Past “trans women are women”, I never questioned anything.

I’m in my mid to late 20s now and I’ve recently expanded my social circle. As a result of this and moving away from purely LGBT spaces, I’ve had a lot more exposure to a wider range of political and social opinions.

A big one of these is the realisation that my previously, narrower social circle was very much an echo chamber. We just accepted everyone. That is lovely in some senses, but I also understand the world isn’t that simple.

Thing is, I’m struggling to even work out my feelings.

I’ve been taught that anything less than fully accepting trans people as the gender they want to present as is transphobic.

I suppose in my mind the two sides are a) complete acceptance and b) complete denial and erasure of trans-people and outright transphobia.

I’m interested in what exists in the middle. What do normal, everyday, people believe? What is the most “common” view on trans issues? Outside of my own echo chamber, where does the line lie?

I understand this forum leans very heavily in one direction. However, that’s why I’m asking here. Do you discuss trans issues with your friends and own social circles? Does it even come up? What kind of conversations do you have?

I suppose I’m trying to get a gist for what “acceptable” opinions are outside of my own social scene. Like I said, it’s just “trans women are women.” Anything less is considered erasure and denial and would have an individual cast out!

Happy to answer any questions. I’m trying to think more critically and actually work out what my own opinions are. And please note that whilst I have obviously described myself as coming from a very liberal background, I’m very open to hearing views as I no longer know what mine are. It’s amazing how quickly things change once you’re in the “real world.”

... and here on film. This is not exhaustive but you get the gist:

https://sex-matters.org/about-us/what-we-are-up-against/transactivist-violence-a-timeline/

It's never been acknowledged, let alone condemned by those who advocate politically for trans identifying people. Echo chamber you say?

I would say mumsnet probably isn't the place to get common view from the nation if that makes sense? Mumsnet is its own echo chamber and a lot on here are very extreme TERF.

Having discussed with my in person (middle England, middle class, working mums mostly) group of mates I think we're probably more reflective of general consensus amongst people our age which would be a more nuanced...

• Men can't become women
• People who think they are in the wrong body - whether male / female or wish to cut their arms off or wish to become badgers - should probably get counseling and such counselling shouldn't be considered conversion therapy
• But it's important to be kind
• So if someone - with the issues they've been facing - wishes to be addressed with different pronouns, we do it not because we believe it but to be kind and honestly if someone isn't asking your opinion it's ok to just STFU.
• We aren't that bothered by the idea of trans men in female changing rooms because statistically we've probably been in one with a trans person and just not noticed or cared
• In general don't think it's a massive issue or something we think about much. Not that it's not an issue at all but in the scheme of things... let's focus on abysmal rape convictions first and getting some more women into CEO roles first.

I gather it's much more important for Gen Z though - I'm a millennial.

See that's not far from me and I'm a massive TERF.
But I disagree with the last point because abysmal rape convictions reflect a complete disdain for women and so does trying to take our established rights away by pretending men can be women. And then being attacked for protesting against this. You cannot advocate for women in law and policy if you are destroying the meaning of the category that you are talking about. Same old same old, in a dress.
And when the women (and girls) who are raped, or have suffered domestic violence need a safe haven (rape crisis centre, a domestic violence unit, a toilet, a changing room), then are told they are massive bigots for needing a place away from men.
And when that paedophile or rapist decides he's transgender, women already in prison are told to be kind and allow that man into a woman's prison.

I agree with you that many people don't see what the fuss is about but I think that's because they have been conned into thinking transwomen are not men - but they are men - no better than any other man.

I believe that 'feeling' like a woman when you aren't, should hold exactly the same weight as 'feeling' korean when you are are Caucasian, 'feeling' disabled when you are able bodied, 'feeling' 12 when you are 36, or 'feeling' 6foot 2 when you are 5 foot 5.

Feel how you want, nothing I can do. But don't expect me lie about it, don't expect me allow an adult into kids football team, don't expect to be allowed to compete at the Paralympics or get disability benefits and don't expect me to accept a man in the female toilets, changing rooms, sports, prisons etc.

The reason you see such apparent polarisations is that the whole systems depends on the one belief. TWAW or TWAM.

If you believe the former you have to buy into A LOT of questionable things. That you can change sex, that womens fear of men doesn't matter, that single sex spaces are based on feelings not bodies etc etc.

If you believe the opposite then the whole thing collapsed. If TW are men then why the fuck are they trying to get into women's spaces. It then becomes a lot more sinister and many many many women have enough experience of men to imagine how things can go very very wrong. And it would go wrong for women, not men.

TW have yet to prove that they are anything other then men. Their crime stats, their behaviour, their entitlement. Your trans friend Susie may be lovely but so is my 6 foot brother and I wouldn't him in the woman's changing room either.

This is why there is little middle ground because that one belief changes everything. You either accept it or not and everything extrapolates from there.

Your first two bullet points are very TERFy

When you say you don't mind trans men in female changing rooms do you mean transwomen? Trans men are female so they belong in female SSS

Your personal middle class circle is more of a bubble than Mumsnet is. Not everyone on MN posts on FWR and is what you’d refer to as a “terf” but the poll results on AIBU when they come up are always very telling. And in most spaces people don’t buy that men should use female spaces, whatever you and your friends are or aren’t bothered about.

And obviously I’m assuming you mean a trans identified male, so called “trans men” are women, so it’s appropriate for them to use women’s spaces.

Men / women - whatever. Under the current laws we'd have trans men (women who identify as men) in our changing rooms. Don't care. Trans women in changing rooms. Also don't care. I just don't. I don't believe it's a threat based on any data set available to me. I do think many other things are a danger, and I spend my time worrying about them.

For the label TERF - I just don't really care enough to care what the label is because it's not something that's ever come up in my life as a thing that impacts me. Being sacked on maternity leave did. Being assaulted (by a man man not a trans person) did. There are more material problems and as feminists absolutely it would be great to create a perfect world all the time but we have limited energy and currently that limited energy is being wasted on issues with less materiality where if we threw our collective weight into something like rape myths we could have such an impact on more people's lives.

Back to the TERF label. I don't see myself as TERF because the TERFs I know seem very hostile towards trans people which I am not. When I have met trans people I have been kind and used the pronouns they have asked for because that to me is being polite. If they asked me my view, I would share it, but so far no trans person has - after all why would they care what I think. But if we're thought-policing I guess in my thoughts I am a kindly TERF.

As one example of a reasonably middle of the road view:

Most of the time I don’t care.

I’ll call you by whatever name and pronoun combination you choose to use. I get peoples names wrong reasonably regularly, that applies to every one. I’d like honest mistakes to be taken as such.

There are a handful of situations where it genuinely matters. Rape crises centres being one example. Anyone who wishes to access one should have very clear information about who they’ll come into contact with and get choice around that. Prisons being another one. Prisoners should be housed alongside other prisoners in a way that minimises risk and promotes rehabilitation. Realistically that’s going to need to be a case by case basis for non standard situations.

I can’t get excited about public toilets. I prefer ones that have decent cubicles, are cleaned regularly, the users have some standards. There’s no law about who can / can’t use them and I don’t buy into the safety hysteria. Safe to me is well lit, public, plenty of people. There will always be nasty people who choose to try and commit violent crimes, trying to get picky about details of what’s in someone’s pants while they relieve themselves of some
bodily fluids doesn’t change that situation or make it more or less likely to occur in my view.
Education should cover a range of views with no firm view on what’s ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ (given there’s very obviously no consensus on that). That includes the range within each ‘label’ and that for most of life clear demarcations aren’t needed. If you’re Jo, like sneakers, jeans, and want to grow up to be a mechanic and have short hair that’s fine. See you you fall in love with. You don’t need to put a label on that for most of life.

I’m sure I’ll get critiqued and told I’m wrong. Because apparently it’s ok to tell people what they should think.

This I would say answers to the OP's question about what 'most' people think honestly.

Preferred pronouns seem innocent enough, but what if a teacher is trans?

The 'be kind' model is unspoken, allowing for everyone to assume we're on the same page. But unless it's articulated officially, we are heading for problems.

Do all trans people understand what 'be kind' means, or will they take PP as passing? Are all trans people willing to accept politeness but respect single sex spaces?

I’m really not sure why it’s considered supremely virtuous to “call you by your name and pronouns”. I would generally use the name a person uses because it’s just their name and they’re allowed to change it. I think calling someone by their former name is sometimes necessary if they have done something bad, in the public interest. And so called “preferred pronouns” is compelled speech that I don’t wish to participate in, thanks all the same. That’s my TERFy view.

I object to a few self declared middle class people speaking on behalf of the majority of people, who do not accept that a man can become a woman and have no intention of propping up his inner world like a prop in his life.

Check out any poll on this issue. You’re in the minority in not caring about intact men in women’s toilets, so please stop presenting your own biased view as some sort of objective, balanced, voice of reason.

Bumping this because people who “don’t really care” seem to be pushing the misguided idea that no one else does either.

It's so uncool to care.
Hysterical even. That word comes up a lot.
It's a great 'tell'.

Why do we have female toilets and changing rooms if the majority of women arent bothered about sharing with men? If women dont mind sharing with men, why do TW care so much?

Why are the designs for single sex toilets so different from unisex ones?

Most people want single sex facilities.

The polls show a trend downwards over the last 8 years in tolerance of trans activist demands to access opposite sex spaces, sports etc.

YY.

I will admit there are a lot of political and social issues I don't care about.

But I have never ever questioned why other people do care about them, or told them there are more important things to care about.

Hi OP.

Welcome.

Use your reasoning and thinking skills and intelligence as much as your feelings. Ask questions, check sources, test theories.

Never mind 'acceptable', most people on this board are aiming to get to a position based on logic, fairness, and balance.

In 'real life' most people believe humans come in two sexes and that for some things, the sexes benefit from being segregated. Most people think that gender incongruent people have rights just like everyone else, but those dont extend to men being accepted as literally women. Most people are also quite firm on children being given medication for 'gender incongruence'.

And most people dont care all that much, tbh. You'll find a lot of women here do, partly because we are feminists and partly because we are thrawn.

At least, I am ...

Oh, yes. Alongside derogatory characterisation of women's voices. Almost every time.

You're gonna get swamped with the gender critical and their obsessive ideology @Schallern. Hope you're ready.

There’s a whole other thread telling us we’re wrong to care about TIMs in women’s prisons because women in prison care about other issues more.

Given my opinions on this - that men are men however they identify and that medically altering children and immature young adults is very very wrong -

I often find it surprising that IRL my role is often to be supporting the transgender community - because IRL people are often being nastily “humorous” at the expense of transgender people. whilst I don’t think you can change sex , I think ridiculing people isn’t nice. if you can’t say anything nice, keep your mouth shut. You can object to the ideology without being nasty and rude to people. There is a lot of ridicule and bitching out there

I ended managing a transgender person as I was seen as the leader most likely to be tolerant and understanding. Me - fully certified GC!

and then other friend are aghast that I don’t think transwomen are women and should be in female changing areas or hospital wards

so I feel balanced !

Did you even read her post where she says she wants to hear what we think?