Trying to understand everyday views on sex and gender discussions

[Schallern]

Hi,

I hope this is the right place for this post.

I am a bisexual female and have been friends for years with a very liberal, LGBT crowd. Past “trans women are women”, I never questioned anything.

I’m in my mid to late 20s now and I’ve recently expanded my social circle. As a result of this and moving away from purely LGBT spaces, I’ve had a lot more exposure to a wider range of political and social opinions.

A big one of these is the realisation that my previously, narrower social circle was very much an echo chamber. We just accepted everyone. That is lovely in some senses, but I also understand the world isn’t that simple.

Thing is, I’m struggling to even work out my feelings.

I’ve been taught that anything less than fully accepting trans people as the gender they want to present as is transphobic.

I suppose in my mind the two sides are a) complete acceptance and b) complete denial and erasure of trans-people and outright transphobia.

I’m interested in what exists in the middle. What do normal, everyday, people believe? What is the most “common” view on trans issues? Outside of my own echo chamber, where does the line lie?

I understand this forum leans very heavily in one direction. However, that’s why I’m asking here. Do you discuss trans issues with your friends and own social circles? Does it even come up? What kind of conversations do you have?

I suppose I’m trying to get a gist for what “acceptable” opinions are outside of my own social scene. Like I said, it’s just “trans women are women.” Anything less is considered erasure and denial and would have an individual cast out!

Happy to answer any questions. I’m trying to think more critically and actually work out what my own opinions are. And please note that whilst I have obviously described myself as coming from a very liberal background, I’m very open to hearing views as I no longer know what mine are. It’s amazing how quickly things change once you’re in the “real world.”

I've already asked you to clarify what expression you are talking about and you haven't done so. Fine, but what conclusions can I draw then?

There's an idea that when there is two contradictory views that not only do the majority believe something in between, but the solution is in the middle too.

So rather than saying TWAW or woman is female, the compromised is a mixture of both.

That would mean either some men are women and can be included in female spaces and opportunities, or some female spaces and opportunities have to be open to men.

But this assumes that this hasn't already been tried.

The GRA allows some men to 'become' women. But the SC understands that this process isn't adequate for women only spaces. The criteria to obtain a GRC doesn't practically make a man a woman, it just gives them id. They retain their male characteristics for the purposes of females single sex spaces.

For some men to become women for the purposes of the EqA, the criteria for GRC needs to be a lot stronger and may never be achieved.

To provide single sex spaces and opportunities, the provider needs to demonstrate that its proportional. So the idea that there are spaces and opportunities that are female only that really needn't be, is also untrue. The example of the compromise is that boxing should remain single sex, but darts shouldnt be, is ignoring the rationale of why we have women's darts in the first place.

Finally, the idea that if the majority of women agree that TWAW, we should agree is bonkers.

We'd have to have a referendum to know for sure.

Also, anecdotal information about the majority of women prisoners not having a problem with men in prisons, is skewed by the fact that the majority of women in prison will not have intimate contact with men in prison. But its those women that are important. It's like non darts players agreeing that darts should be a mix sex sport.

Asking female prisoners while they are in prison whether they are concerned by a male person’s presence when we have already seen what happens with female prisoners who complain (as in a recent case where a female prisoner had her parole applications delayed because there was a complaint against her) is probably not going to produce reliable results if the prisoner is not sure whether what they say is going to be tracked back to them.

Also, the point is again, so what? So what if all but a few female prisoners consented to allow male prisoners access to their section, their consent doesn’t negate the lack of consent of any other female prisoner there or future prisoner being placed there.

Yeah that's not the case. And if youre speaking about that woman that was linked recently, there is nothing that says she was held back for that reason at all. Just her word.

At least some of what a lot of prisoners complain about isn't really justified and or is misplaced. For instance, women in prison at least in part for abusing their kids may genuinely feel aggrieved that "the system" isn't allowing them access to those children. So it isn't like prisoners routinely feel that they can't express their views, even the unreasonable ones and especially to agencies that aren't directly employed as prison staff.

They will also "whistleblow" on staff, even name staff who are problematic. This is far more likely to lead to issues with repercussion than saying trans women are an issue. The staff likely bully trans prisoners for being trans and set inmates against each other like this prisoner reports: https://insidetime.org/comment/finding-a-voice-a-trans-man-in-a-female-prison/.

The idea that prisoners feel held back from expressing these views, even when anonymous for the purposes of research, just isn't aligned with what people who have contact with prisoners know to be true.

This idea that POs and Governers are some bastions of wokeness is delusion.

Also, safeguarding isn't "if we admit men, the majority of women in prison will not be raped".

It doesn't matter if the probability is one women every ten years, its an avoidable risk and when it happens its horrendous for the women who has no choice to avoid the risk.

If reducing the sexual assault and exploitation of female prisoners is the aim, then you'd start where it is most likely to occur. That isn't from trans women who are inmates. It is from other inmates and staff.

Trans rights is essentially a men's rights issue. Men are claiming the right to access women's single sex spaces (of which there are very few) simply by stating that they are also women. It's a semantic trick to present the gender-critical position as "anti-trans" or "transphobic" rather than what it truly it: pro women's rights.

Of course I am aware that there are plenty of transmen, but since most men regard them as women, they've always been an afterthought. They don't threaten men in any way, though some gay men find their invasion of specifically gay spaces and their fetishization of gayness offensive and appropriative.

I think most average people would say it's none of their business how other people choose live their life, and I certainly fall into that camp. If a man feels happier living as a woman, I wouldn't want to stop him. But sex matters: there's difference between living as a woman and being a woman, and a transwoman is not a woman. There are a few protected women's spaces which they cannot enter, if women's rights are to be respected.

Exactly

Barking is a behaviour typically associated with dogs. If I bark, that doesn't make me a dog. The causation is the wrong way round

Do You think prisons should be mixed?

Should low risk men be allowed in women’s prisons?

Mixed prisons are very rare and I couldn’t find any examples that do any more than allow men and women to share communal activities like vocational training and mealtimes, but I can understand that it is possible to make an argument for these facilities.

However I don’t understand how one would make an argument for single sex prisons that are also mixed sex. It seems to be a logical impossibility..

Many men are vulnerable in prison, so if that is the governing factor, why not create mixed sex prisons for people who are vulnerable and low risk?

I will be honest and say that I understand ‘trans’ as a subjective, not an objective concept, and this seems to be in line with previous prison practice and the advice of trans advocacy groups. It’s not clear on what grounds it could be suggested that somebody wasn’t sincere in their beliefs about their identity, and because of that I think it’s difficult to draw conclusions about trans people as a group. If you could explain the grounds on which you are doing this, it would be helpful.

If the majority of road deaths are because of speeding or drunk driving, we dont let people drive while drugged.

Great post, and sounds like you're on a similar journey to me about 10 years ago - when I left Bristol in my late 20's I was firmly TWAW and I'm now very much sex realist.

I see the trans movement as a kind of religion/cult and treat it as such.

Individual trans people I meet I like/dislike based on their actions/behaviour, as I would any other human being. I know lots of trans people and get on well with most of them (they don't know my beliefs because I'm not brave enough to discuss with them!).

The trans movement I think is hugely damaging and built on lies; benefits people like pharmaceutical companies, perverts and narcissists whilst shitting on some incredibly vulnerable people - especially young kids and teens who might be homosexual, neurodiverse or have mental health struggles.

When I talk to people about this IRL and I find most people agree with me and those who haven't agreed have just said "I've never really thought about it much".

I don't talk about it to people who I know are staunchly pro-trans because I used to be one of those people and would have switched off to the "bigotry" without proper thought to what they were saying (another culty/religion sign!).

*Finally, the idea that if the majority of women agree that TWAW, we should agree is bonkers.

We'd have to have a referendum to know for sure *

We would also need a definition on what this means. Do we believe they are actual women.?Does this apply to every single one without exception? What are the exceptions?

Or does it mean that we don't believe that they are women but are prepared to make a polite pretense and treat them as such. For all situations and all TW? or are there exceptions?

I think that there has also been a shift in understanding since the GRA.

When it was passed most people assumed it was to benefit transexuals who had had genital surgery, and this was part of the reasoning of the court cases that preceded it.

Since then, not only has the concept of ‘trans’ expanded to cover a larger group of people, but the ECHR has ruled that trans status cannot be dependent on such treatment.

Anyone’s opinion on men’s cocks is irrelevant.

Also, the GRA was designed for about 6,000 people maximum.

The PC of GR can apply to anyone who is thinking about transitioning.

And the reality is, when a man claims the protection of GR, we don't know what that means, its all self determined.

Prisons can establish if a man has a GRC and apply risk assessment, yet still have men being abusive in women's prisons. What are the risks in other female only spaces.

When I read the OP I instantly recognised a plopper & sure enough they haven't returned to this thread.

This is where I am. Gender critical but not transphobic, if that makes sense.

I just feel sad that so many have been convinced that they have to be the opposite gender in order to dress/behave/date in a certain way. I wish that we were in the space where there was more tolerance of people wearing and doing what they want, without their sex being called into question (or them calling into question their own sex because they have bought into regressive gender stereotypes).

My DB, as was, came out as trans a bit over a year ago. He’s in his mid 30s and it was properly out of the blue, as he’d spent the past decade being alternately a beardy scruff and wearing suits with waistcoats! He’s now with another trans girl who he’s known for years (years before the transition). I have to be honest, I still can’t quite get my head round it, happy to use the preferred name and have no issues with what they both wear etc, but I just end up avoiding using pronouns wherever possible 🤪. There is definitely a massive crossover in those who are trans and those who are ND, and perhaps need things (and people!) to fit into neat boxes…

My DM was recently complaining about the Labour Party not (or is it no longer..?) letting trans women join the women’s conference. I have to say, I imagine trans issues almost certainly fit in much better with LGBT+ than women’s, and most women’s network stuff wouldn’t be of actual huge relevance to the trans community 🤷‍♀️, so I’m, conversely, happy for that one to remain a single sex space.

No I don't think we should "mix" prisons more than they already are.

I personally dont think there should be male staff.

My point is that the sexual exploitation women face in prison isn't coming from the very few trans women in prisons.

That doesnt make sense.

Intoxication is a factor in RTAs.

There is a much higher percentage of drug taking drivers than trans women in prison, especially in a women's prison.

I mean except when it is.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4glne43101o

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-45825838

And more.

In prisons, we should also consider the risk to female staff from male prisoners.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-68442073

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/1024/1477314-barbie-kardashian-court/

Kardashian threatened both staff and other inmates. Scott assaulted a female prison guard.

Barbie is, as far as I'm aware, still under investigation for threats made. If sentenced for them, he will go back into Limerick women's prison.

Barbie is, as far as I'm aware, still under investigation for threats made. If sentenced for them, he will go back into Limerick women's prison.

'I kind of felt that like prison kind of prevented me from carrying out the urge to hurt the people, from carrying out a desire to hurt the people that I want to hurt.'

“A life sentence would just kill me. I couldn’t even cope with five years in prison, never mind how many years. Presently I feel anxious about being out in public because I don’t trust myself not to commit violence.
...
Kardashian had 15 previous convictions including for threats to kill, sexual assault, assault causing harm, assault, and causing criminal damage to property.'

www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/barbie-kardashian-i-expect-arrested-36009671

Sorry, my computer seems to have had some kind of blip, hence the double post.

Yes that is one case. Wome sre routinely sexually abused and exploited by staff and inmates and it never gets past a complaint. The fact that someone has been charged with sexual assault and it happens to be a trans person speaks more of the focus on trans women than safeguarding of female prisoners.

So imagine 1000 female prisoners get assaulted and the only one that is ever correctly reported and escalated is the one committed by a trans woman.. little bit suspicious to me... what about the butch women who force newcomers to give them oral sex to be left in peace? Where are the reports of that? Oh those women are also often the ones selling contraband via the screws so we don't care about that. What we care about is that one trans woman.