Trying to understand everyday views on sex and gender discussions

[Schallern]

Hi,

I hope this is the right place for this post.

I am a bisexual female and have been friends for years with a very liberal, LGBT crowd. Past “trans women are women”, I never questioned anything.

I’m in my mid to late 20s now and I’ve recently expanded my social circle. As a result of this and moving away from purely LGBT spaces, I’ve had a lot more exposure to a wider range of political and social opinions.

A big one of these is the realisation that my previously, narrower social circle was very much an echo chamber. We just accepted everyone. That is lovely in some senses, but I also understand the world isn’t that simple.

Thing is, I’m struggling to even work out my feelings.

I’ve been taught that anything less than fully accepting trans people as the gender they want to present as is transphobic.

I suppose in my mind the two sides are a) complete acceptance and b) complete denial and erasure of trans-people and outright transphobia.

I’m interested in what exists in the middle. What do normal, everyday, people believe? What is the most “common” view on trans issues? Outside of my own echo chamber, where does the line lie?

I understand this forum leans very heavily in one direction. However, that’s why I’m asking here. Do you discuss trans issues with your friends and own social circles? Does it even come up? What kind of conversations do you have?

I suppose I’m trying to get a gist for what “acceptable” opinions are outside of my own social scene. Like I said, it’s just “trans women are women.” Anything less is considered erasure and denial and would have an individual cast out!

Happy to answer any questions. I’m trying to think more critically and actually work out what my own opinions are. And please note that whilst I have obviously described myself as coming from a very liberal background, I’m very open to hearing views as I no longer know what mine are. It’s amazing how quickly things change once you’re in the “real world.”

The report was from HM Inspector of prisons because immigrant detention comes under the same remit as prisons. I've said before, we discuss women in prisons on here frequently, I've made threads on various issues. I'm not interested in scurrying about carrying out your bidding.

It means it gives away your objective which is to keep trans women out of female spaces. Your objective has nothing to do with improving female prisoners outcomes and experiences.

And you denying there's a risk gives away you do think male prisoners should be in female prisons, and you do not care about the consequences.

You have decided that its an acceptable risk because your priority is men in women's prisons. If you cared, you wouldn't wave away the risk.

It's more accurate to say that many women on this site think single sex services of all kinds are very important, and over more recent years, women who value single sex services have congregated on this site because other forums wouldn't allow discussion.

Women have long expressed their dislike of changing villages on mumsnet, and there have been long, long discussions about the age at which opposite sex children should be allowed into single sex changing rooms. These threads long predate Stonewall's 2015 push for self ID and the realisation that they were trying to remove women's rights from legislation.

If you think mixed sex prisons are a good idea, I am very happy and interested to hear your argument explaining how and why that should be instituted. However, if you argue that a mixed sex prison is a single sex prison, your argument just doesn't make sense.

Where have I said they are? The only people who think that trans women are a central issue in jails are you lot here. People involved with prison and prisoners are literally never speaking about it because there are so many more prevalent issues to discuss.

Highlighting that this is not a dominant issue in female prisons doesnt mean that the person wants female prisons to be "mixed sex". It just means they are saying that it isnt a big issue for prisoners or those who support them.

Do you understand the difference between "this isnt a dominant issue for prisoners" and "I think trans women should be in women's prisons". Be honest, can you distinguish between those two statements?

It means it gives away your objective which is to keep trans women out of female spaces.

Has there been some kind of misunderstanding? Just to clear things up, there is no suggestion that any particular group of men should be excluded. It's all men. Otherwise it isn't a female space.

When you can't even read and absorb words because you are so incensed that a woman MIGHT have a different opinion to you?

I'm not incensed and I'm sorry if I have given that impression. I have no idea of your sex. It's an anonymous forum.

I'm just trying to understand your argument. Are you arguing that all men including staff should be excluded from women's prisons?

Why do you care if we are talking about men in women's prisons?

If you dont think its a big deal, move along to a different discussion you are interested in. Why are you desperately trying to stop this one?

Yes. Of course you shouldn't take the rights away from a group of vulnerable women, and then give men legal authority over them as staff members. Guess what though? Current female prisoners do not agree with me.

People involved with prison and prisoners are literally never speaking about it because there are so many more prevalent issues to discuss.

Rhona Hotchkiss is the most prominent person to have raised awareness of this issue but she also campaigns on a range of other issues.

Do you think there is some kind of limit on the number of issues that people care about?

Do you understand the difference between "this isnt a dominant issue for prisoners" and "I think trans women should be in women's prisons". Be honest, can you distinguish between those two statements?

Alas my ability to distinguish between those two statements does not make your position clearer and I am interested to know your opinion. Do you think some men should be allowed in women's prisons, and if so, on what basis should be they be included and other men excluded?

I care because I am an ex-prisoner and I volunteer to supprt female prisoners. It is frustrating when we as prisoners had/have so many pressing issues that people either dont care about or think we deserve, only to be used conveniently as these potential victims when someone wants to make a point about something else.

As i have said, most of you here would never think about the troubles of female prisoners again if there were no trans women in female prisons at all. It's fake concern.

That is why I care.

And male prisoners?

If you understood the difference, you'd realise that my opinion is moot. Thank you for showing that you are unable to show the rationality to distinguish between "female prisoners have bigger issues" and "trans women should be in women's prisons". It helps me know how productive interaction will be.

You seem to be avoiding answering the question.

Obviously you are under no obligation to do so, but it does make your position rather unclear.

The attached are statements from Scottish female prisoners about having trans-identified men housed with them:

From

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2026/01/26/why-does-the-scottish-prison-service-hold-men-convicted-of-murder-in-the-female-prison-estate-a-policy-timeline/

Female prisoners seem not to have an issue with post op transgender women, I'll go with them on that.

What you hsve to bear in mind is that I don't think most people in prison should be there and I dont think anyone should be sharing cells or showering together. So to me, the risk of trans women in female prisons in the way i think they should be is minimal because everyone would have private space at their most vulnerable moments.

Yes the ones written in their dialect.

What does that mean?

eta - and did you read the statements?

I can see where you're coming from with this, but on this board the 'thing' we care about is single sex spaces, facilities and other services. Your focus is on women in prison alone.

So it makes sense that our efforts and attention focuses on this one aspect of women's prisons, and that your focus is on the wider aspects of women's experiences in prisons. It's not to say we don't care about the wider aspects of women's experiences in prisons (indeed many women on this board have expressed their opinion that no males should be in women's prisons, including as prison guards), but our focus is broader than just prisons.

Your focus isnt on prisons at all. It's just convenient that you can use prisoners to try and advance your points, without even speaking to prisoners about it. Men who perform feminism for clout do the same sort of thing and are venomous should any woman disagree with them.

Yeah I read these the other day. They were all written in the accent of the prisoner which was strange. Sort of like a Martina Cole book.

Many of the prisoners differentiated between pre and post op trans women and seemed to be fine with the latter. I found it interesting tbh because it was the only time I had actually heard the views of women in prison about this despite having frequent contact with prisons and prisoners.

I'll repeat myself, this is a board to discuss gender issues on a parenting site. We're not obligated to discuss anything, we certainly dont have to stick to your agenda.

Do you police other boards and forum like this?

What if we are successful, and these discussion do lead to no male prisoners in female prisons, do you think that would be a bad thing?

If we arent successful, do you think that would lead to more male prisons guards in female prisons?

You are on a thread about gender and sex, why are you expecting the conversation to be about general safety in women's prisons.

We’ve covered this on other threads. However minor a problem putting men in women’s prisons is in your eyes, women have been unequivocally harmed by it.

I don’t believe your focus is actually on women’s prisons either. Otherwise I’m sure there are more important discussions you could be participating on online, rather than scolding women for caring about single sex spaces.

Thank you for replying, and that does make sense.

The problem is that such a policy would make prisoner treatment dependent on sterilisation and it is likely that that isn't lawful.

Why would it be strange for the statements to be written in the prisoners’ own words? I believe (though would have to check the original document) that they were transcribed from recordings. How is that strange? It’s a normal way of accurately recording personal opinion data in this type of study

The thing I found interesting was that they expressed concern about whether they were even allowed to voice the opinions that they clearly had.

Well someone's been speaking to female prisoners, as a poster above has posted quotes from female prisoners in Scotland...!

To me, your argument about our focus is a bit strange. I see it a bit like a leisure centre user saying "Leisure center changing rooms have far more issues than the odd transwoman going in - what about hairs in plugholes, cold showers and verrucas?! That affects far more women - your use of transwomen to fake concern about leisure center changing rooms is terrible". Just seems a bit odd.

Also confused why you think that men dressed as women should be housed in the female estate because butch female prisoners sexually assault female prisoners. Both are an issue of course, but don't we want to minimise any risks and issues where we can?! Removing men is an easy win - I don't feel like treating butch lesbians differently is easy without putting homophobic policies in place.