Trying to understand everyday views on sex and gender discussions

[Schallern]

Hi,

I hope this is the right place for this post.

I am a bisexual female and have been friends for years with a very liberal, LGBT crowd. Past “trans women are women”, I never questioned anything.

I’m in my mid to late 20s now and I’ve recently expanded my social circle. As a result of this and moving away from purely LGBT spaces, I’ve had a lot more exposure to a wider range of political and social opinions.

A big one of these is the realisation that my previously, narrower social circle was very much an echo chamber. We just accepted everyone. That is lovely in some senses, but I also understand the world isn’t that simple.

Thing is, I’m struggling to even work out my feelings.

I’ve been taught that anything less than fully accepting trans people as the gender they want to present as is transphobic.

I suppose in my mind the two sides are a) complete acceptance and b) complete denial and erasure of trans-people and outright transphobia.

I’m interested in what exists in the middle. What do normal, everyday, people believe? What is the most “common” view on trans issues? Outside of my own echo chamber, where does the line lie?

I understand this forum leans very heavily in one direction. However, that’s why I’m asking here. Do you discuss trans issues with your friends and own social circles? Does it even come up? What kind of conversations do you have?

I suppose I’m trying to get a gist for what “acceptable” opinions are outside of my own social scene. Like I said, it’s just “trans women are women.” Anything less is considered erasure and denial and would have an individual cast out!

Happy to answer any questions. I’m trying to think more critically and actually work out what my own opinions are. And please note that whilst I have obviously described myself as coming from a very liberal background, I’m very open to hearing views as I no longer know what mine are. It’s amazing how quickly things change once you’re in the “real world.”

You mean my similar misguided mates in the charities that actually support women prisoners opposed to pretending to? Okay.

Are you referring to a woman who killed a man with a pair of scissors and only served a handful of years having their release date delayed a bit and them attributing that to a debate about trans women?

Do you think this violent woman may have presented other reasons why the system thought she should be kept in a bit longer and reviewed properly for release?

The women’s/charity in general sector is incredibly captured. See Roz Adams v ERCC. So no I’m not hanging on their every word either.

Im talking about across the whole site. You guys never speak about the plight of female prisoners except in relation to trans women. That's what shows your true objectives.

That's what shows your true objectives.

You keep saying that as though that's a bad thing. But keeping male prisoners out of female prisons is a perfectly good objective in and of itself.

Okay so anyone who may disagree with you, even if they specialise in helping the people you claim to care about and commission all of the research etc that examines their outcomes and objectives, you dismiss? Yes?

Why not just admit that you have no real interest in female prisoners and just want consistency when it comes to spaces being single sex? I dont get the pretence.

Sure. But it has nothing to do with wanting better for female prisoners. It's only to do with ensuring trans women arent in spaces designated for women.

My issue is with people pretending otherwise.

But it has nothing to do with wanting better for female prisoners. It's only to do with ensuring trans women arent in spaces designated for women.

Why does it have to be one or the other? It's to do with ensuring trans women aren't in spaces designated for women, because it's better for women, which includes female prisoners.

I don't understand your separating the two.

I don't think we are going to shift your opinion on our attitudes towards female prisoners, so, to return do the subject of the thread, do you accept that women can't defend their rights (of which the right to single sex services in some circumstances is only a part) if sex isn't defined in law?

Discriminaton law depends on comparators between people who have a PC and people who don't have a PC, and if you can't make a distinction, there can be no case for unlawful discrimination.

As a normal, everyday person, @Schallern, I know that human beings cannot change sex. They can take hormones and have surgeries to mimic the appearance of the opposite sex, but they remain the sex they were born.

I also believe that women and girls deserve and need single sex spaces, for their safety and dignity in changing rooms, toilets, prisons, hospitals, sports, domestic abuse refuges and rape crisis centres.

I genuinely feel that the trans rights movement does not want to fight for their own rights and needs, in the way that women have had to fight for so many of our rights and needs - they simply want to invade, dominate and override women’s hard fought for rights.

Women who have been raped deserve to have single sex care and support. Women should not be forced to undress in front of a male person. Our words - mother, woman, breastfeeding should not be erased and replaced with birthing unit, menstruator, chest feeder, front hole. Women and girls should not be robbed of their achievements in sports by males whose physique is shaped by male adolescence to be stronger, faster, bigger, more stamina. Scholarships and awards designed to improve the numbers of women in particular fields should not be given to men who have male privilege and plenty of awards open to them.

Women should not be threatened with death, rape, assault for stating our opinions on trans rights.

I’m allowed to dismiss whatever I want, just like you.

This poster has trouble grasping that when we say we don’t think men should ever be in women only spaces, we mean it. And yes, I’m quite happy to support male guards being taken out of women’s prisons too.

Of course it is about wanting better for women prisoners, @Lexibletheflexible! What is wrong with saying that no woman should be locked up with a violent male rapist? Why shouldn’t we want women prisoners to be safe?

How many sexual assaults/rapes would you accept as the reasonable price for allowing violent males to identify into women’s prisons so they can be locked up with vulnerable women? I believe the only acceptable answer is zero, sadly there have already been such assaults.

The poster has already completely skipped over the post where @Helleofabore says she had a female relative in a women’s prison. I’m pretty sure that means she can have a view, every bit as much as the pp.

Even if you are right and nobody on this board cares about the plight of prisoners, the distinction between men's and women's services is important.

For me it's as important to be clear about the exceptions in the EA that allow lawful sex discrimination to prevent women and men being segregated unnecessarily as it is to enable single sex spaces.

I accept that there are different rules for associations because we have freedom of association, but I am very much AGAINST any service or employer treating men and women differently for no apparent reason. If a 'single sex' service includes some men, then it's unclear why it is single sex and the discrimination is lawful. It just seems like sexism.

Rhona Hotchkiss and Julie Bindel know more about the women’s prison estate in general than anyone here I imagine. They both campaign for single sex prisons.

The thing that bothers me is the assertion that because we care about not having male prisoners in female prisons, we cannot possibly care about any other issues regarding the plight of female prisoners.

I can care about multiple things at the same time, thank you. On this particular tiny corner of the internet, I talk about my concerns about gender ideology and the effect it has on all women - old, young, wealthy, poor, free, incarcerated, all. In other spaces I talk about other concerns. Why is that so hard to understand?

The poster can see into our souls, apparently

Anyway it’s just a silly derail.

Oh, we've been honoured by a visit from Layla Moran!

What views are those? Can you quote my views please? Just so I can be assured that you are following the conversation.

If you did care, then this site would have evidence of all the times youve brought up the plight of female prisoners aside from trans inmates. An advanced search using the site tools and googles show us these conversations barely exist on here despite the site going for 20 years.

You don't have to care about the plight of prisoners. Just stop pretending you do. Just say we want to make sure trans women arent in any single sex spaces. That's all we care about. It is disingenuous when you pretend you care about female prisoners when it is clear you only care about this sex issue.

Because you don't give a shit who that woman is locked up with unless it is a MALE. If you cared about things like bullying, exploitation and violence against inmates, you'd be talking about the fact nobody should share a cell. But again, your actions belie your words. Your only issue is around female prisoners being harmed by transgender prisoners. You don't have an issue with them being harmed by anyone else.

Did I say I talk about them here on MN? I spend most of my MN time here, on the feminism and gender board. I also spend a lot of time not on the internet, talking face-to-face with human beings about a vast number of other things, which include yes, prisoners’ needs and rights.

You know nothing about me. Why do you keep making assumptions?