Men who affirm TW

[Holdmeclosertinydancer2018]

This is something I've wondered for a while and a post from a woman on FB asking/stating the same thing prompted me to ask everyone's opinions on this.

I have noticed a large proportion of Trans Idealogues on both FB and Reddit go absolutely berserk when someone points out that TW are not, in fact women, but oddly, a large proportion of them are men.

Now I completely understand the women that have bought into this notion as women generally speaking tend to be more empathetic for their fellow human so are more likely to go along with 'be kind'. But what about the swathes of seemingly normal, gender conforming men that support it? I don't know a single man other than one in real life (who's daughter is apparently now a 'she') that support the idea that TW are women. What is their motive for this?

Most people don't buy into the concept of trans identity and they recognise that people cannot change sex.

The concept of 'treating someone as a woman' makes no sense. What does it mean, apart from letting some men into women's protected categories?

You have to weight up preventing harm to trans people vs protecting womens spaces. Some choose the former, some choose the latter.

If we prove that suicide rates stays the same or go up after transition, doesnt that indicate that women need to do more to support their journey

Its not just suicide, its also higher rates of unemployment, assault, homelessness etc. It falls under a wide umbrella of "harm"

Not everyone will be swayed by the argument (a lot of people jsut don't care about the issue at all) but for those who are motivated by reducing harm to the trans community, then this argument would be force them to re-think their position.

When men talk about their trans journey, they do talk about suicide and being happier when women accept them as women.

But, if we believe that most men are indifferent to trans, how would disproving the suicide rates help?

If we prove that suicide rates stays the same or go up after transition, doesnt that indicate that women need to do more to support their journey?

If it goes down, doesnt it indicate that transition works?

If you are working on that premise, thats good. But I'm not convinced it will have effect you think.

It doesn't matter what " they" think. We've had years of having to deal with the consequences of what " they" think. We have rules and laws which govern such matters

No, we don't have to do that. We don't have to weigh up anything. We just have to insist that women's rights and protections already exist. They do.

We have rules and laws which govern such matters

Rules and laws work best if people follow them. They are not that effective if the majority of the public is pro-trans and believes TWAW so acts/votes that way. Winning over public opinion is crucial.

No, we don't have to do that. We don't have to weigh up anything. We just have to insist that women's rights and protections already exist. They do.

I used the word 'we.' I meant it more like society have to balance rights. Again, the other side chooses the former and we choose the latter.

No we don't have to weigh up anything. Any measures taken to accommodate trans identifying males should not be coming at the expense of women. They can be accommodated while leaving women well alone.

Why would anyone have a 'right' to be treated as the opposite sex.

That's not a right. This is not a rights issue.

I'm curious, if there were studies that showed that socially accepting trans people as their chosen gender stopped all the violence, mental health, suicide etc in their community, would you support it then?

I'm just wondering if you position is driven by principle of single sex spaces or by the lack of evidence in social transition. I'm gender critical but I'm not ideologically captured so am opened to what new evidence shows,

No I wouldn't support it, because it would come at the expense of women. Why's that so hard to understand? Unless you only think about men's needs not women's. Is that really your position?

Women have the right to their own single sex spaces. If trans identifying men need their own separate spaces then go right ahead and campaign for them.

Not if that 'safety' for the trans community came at a cost to women. If this brave new world also showed a reduction in violence against women maybe but we all know it would actually show the opposite so no
Women are not a resource for unhappy men.

If this brave new world also showed a reduction in violence against women maybe

I'm the same. if it showed a reduction in of the violence to the trans community and no increase in violence to women then I would probably support it. I personally don't object to a transwoman joining a womans bookclub as I dont think them being there leads to an increase in violence. But I would object to them in changing rooms, prisons and etc.

I’d be glad for these men that ‘transition’ had worked to make their lives better.

But I would not accept them in place of women, as being women.

No, the best way is to ask the very simple question "why does it have to be either/or?"

Why can't we recognise and support the-thing-that-is-not-sex and the-thing-that-is-sex separately?

Stop allowing TRAs to base the argument in the assumption that TW are somehow meaningfully more like the opposite sex than other men and the only question is how far along the man/woman line they should be allowed to go (ie how big a lie about the nature of womanhood we are expected to smile along with), and challenge that assumption.

It's this initial false framing from which everything else springs. It sets the terms of a false question. If we accept the false framing, we can never make our case because our reality is precluded from the picture before we start.

Firstly its the trans community that won't let us say book group fine, showers not OK.

Secondly think about that book group for a moment. Why is it a woman only group? Are there mixed sex book groupd that the trans women could join? If so why join a women's only group. Will they dominate conversation, push their opinion or will they let women take the lead? Where do women who want or need female only groups for religious, cultural or trauma reasons go instead. What happens if the book is about a uniquely female experience will a woman feel happy to suggest it as a read or would they not suggest it incase it causes upset or embarrassment to the TW? It isn't as black and white as no violence equals OK to give away female spaces.

Yes, this. I think women exist in our own right, not just a collection of projections about womanhood by men.

Validating a man playacting his beliefs about "being" a woman might be good for said man but is not a good message for society to send to about who we are and how much our self knowledge matters.

@PeachyDaisy to your question, I'm sure you can think of plenty of examples where one group's life/happiness/mental health would be greatly improved by access to the resources and protections of another group, but we recognise that to do so is unfair so we don't do it even though the first group would have measurable better outcomes if we did.

So if it were shown that transition does what you suggest it could, I would look for society/researchers to say "right, but men can't actually become women so it can't be being a woman that solved things, so what's really making the difference here? Is it less macho pressures? Is it feeling safer away from agressive men? Is it enjoying clothes ones own sexism prevents one wearing? Let's find the real factor(s) and look for ways to provide those supports in society in ways that don't involve reducing women's own lives and identies and reality into support resources for struggling men".

If Reddit is anything to go by, the AGP forum is full of men stating they wish to be the desired party, the chasee instead of the chaser in dating. The MtF forum general consensus seems to be things like having doors held open for them and there is a lot of talk of the fetishisation of Transwomen ( ie men who specifically want to fuckna Transwoman, which upsets them as they want to be viewed as the real women they are- honestly, the mond boggles.

It is my opinion that many of theses men have, in their minds, failed at masculinity and therefore being a man. They appear to be mostly non competitive in nature (which would be a struggle for them within a Capitalist society) and envy the way women are treated so begin idolising femininity and womanhood to the point they want to become 'women'..

Anyone with the time spare, take a trip over to r/AGP, very interesting read.

Leave time to have a scalding hot shower in dettol after as well.

@Holdmeclosertinydancer2018 Are there heterosexual men who want to have sex with trans identifying men?
I'm thinking that logically there cannot be any, since they would by definition be gay or bisexual if they wanted to have sex with other men (be they trans identified or not).

Judging by stuff I've read, yes, plenty. Of course they're gay, but I assume many would frame it in their minds as shagging a woman. Going back to what someone mentioned earlier, men tend to see women as tits and high heels.

To them women are at risķ of violence but as trans people experience more violence than women it is more important to safegaurd them.

Could we please see the data for this claim? For the UK, not South America.

This is why I stated earlier back in the thread that I honestly believe most of the types of man that believe TWAW are actually interested in TW.

The political/oppression arguments are definitely worth considering but I honestly don't think it's that complex. I believe there are a select group who use TWAW are genuinely just sticking the boot in because Feminism, but I don't think enough people are taking into consideration how motivated by sex men are, even the supposedly peace mongering lefties.

Hence my reason for the thread, it is odd when supposedly straight men in particular affirm TW.

I think there are a big chunk of men who are TWAW but 'not for relationship purposes' who think man = macho so TW are less than men and so are women so it's OK to chuck us all in the same category because we are both lesser beings.

"I'm just wondering if you position is driven by principle of single sex spaces or by the lack of evidence in social transition."

This doesn't make sense.

There is a lack of evidence to support social transition that would give any sub group of male people access to female single sex provisions. Nothing should do this because it is very weak safeguarding.

Even if there was strong evidence that socially transitioning improved mental health and prevented suicides, that is no reason to lower the safeguarding standards in policies protecting female people's need for single sex provisions. Sure, it could support alternative provisions but it does not mean that any male person should ever be welcomed into any female single sex provision.

And if a male person declares that this is the only way that they will have better mental health and lower risk of suicide, then that is emotionally manipulative on a societal level. How is that acceptable?

Well, according to some recent posters, it is absolutely true that their husbands were never gay or bisexual, only heterosexual. And accepting of a male person as their sexual partner. This is not the first time we have seen this claim either.

It feeds into that subjective reality that they construct to support their identity.