“A school faces a threat of legal action over policies that protect all children – so we’re fighting back.”

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

https://goodlaw.social/a8mo

the GLP are sort of the curse of bad luck so let’s see what happens…

Which, on my evidence and research, would turn into boys, boys, boys, girls. Boys who wanted to be with the girls still wouldn’t get what they want. Two of those changing room set ups with boys would have to be private, mixed sex designs which would put the boys in them more at risk.

As a message it was spot on and worth repeating! 😁

This male thinks his 'belief' is the only think that matters.

Our material reality and lived experience does not matter to him.

Lets be absolutely clear about this.

If thats the case, why should we give a shit about him? He has no respect and does not believe we are worth safeguarding.

We are happy to safeguard and respect transpeople BUT this is not one way travel. It MUST be mutual.

If there is no willingness to do this, then I'm afraid, that there will be much less tolerance for transpeople because everyone else will be totally fed up of the unreasonable and at times outrageous behaviour.

This is within the power and control of transpeople to prevent. Not women's.

This is not a threat from myself nor anyone else here, but a prediction of the behaviour of the broader public who will start to get fed up on the basis of displays of the crap we've seen here over the past week especially as the malpractice scandal starts to break.

No one believes people can change sex. Not really. Its all smoke and mirrors mixed with the slight of hand of English.

It will end. Even amongst young people the tolerance of the bullshit is on the wane. It can't come soon enough.

@Keeptoiletssafe
Keeptoiletssafe · Today 12:07

The picture and physics

Adding the sanitary bin back and adjusting for the angles.

The sanitary bin ergonomical comes out in line with the toilet bowl

The girls knees cant tuck in around the toilet.
That pushs her legs fully down into the circulation space
The full to the floor wall prevents her feet and legs from being pushed into another stall
Both knee and feet are "fixed" into a "double" wedge behind a full lenght door.

So getting the door open and/or enough space to gain access is a problem

And a full size door is also heavy to lift off the hinges as the liftimg effort is from the swing edge with limited leverage.

Yep
Labled

(Unkind ) boys only
Boys
Girls
(Unkind ) girls only

Yes please
I missed what you said there ... 🤣

There's like some mission with these people when they come on here. Create provacativeness, anarchic energy, bash a few barriers down, and my fave, tell women and parents that they're wrong.
"Engage" just enough to create the illusion of "dialogue", drop a couple of clues of personal backstory but nothing too specific, all the while laced with the hard faced declaration that all women and girls will have to adjust, compensate, change, suck it up, so that this cohort can feel unchallenged and stable.
Selfish and self centered don't even start to describe it.
I only tip my hat to this fellow in one respect...he was good enough to be up front and lay it out, not obfuscating as many TRAs do, no, this fellow straight out with it, men in women's spaces and nothing less.

On the topic of mixed sex toilets.
I worked for a couple of years in a FE college which was primarily full of older teenagers and young adults with learning difficulties.

The area where I worked was away from the main building and had a row of mixed sex student toilets which were all also fully accessible. Some had more space because there were students there that needed staff assistance to use. these were very popular.

Some of the students were dating each other which obviously was not a problem. However the common understanding was that because the college had put mixed sex toilets in, it was perfectly fine to use to have mixed sex in them. i reported several couples going in, having sex, and coming out and just wandering off to the next class. It completely normalised having sex in the college toilets. Not one of the permanent staff or managers would accept that this was going on, nor would they agree to any investigation or monitoring.

I agree. I actually think that any medical or surgical procedure that attempts to make a person look more like the opposite sex should be banned. It is a deception and, for societal safeguarding reasons, we should not allow it. No puberty blockers, no opposite-sex hormones, no surgery. If someone has gender dysphoria, however that is defined, they will just have to learn to live with it, with therapy if that helps. There are plenty of us out here living with all sorts of impediments to a perfect life.

As Naomi C says, if you need something to be peanut-free, it needs to be 100% peanut-free, not just free of peanuts that look like peanuts, but secretly containing peanuts that are disguised as blueberries.

@Keeptoiletssafe brilliant informative post, thank you.

I have a question: at the start you talk about a sexed preference - I'm assuming this is for trans-identified people? So TIFs have a different toilet preference to TIMs in terms of where they want to go?

Just wanted to clarify. It's really fascinating if so and I think speaks to the known risks based on sex, not gender.

👏👏👏👏👏

How is the Good Law Project acting for the school when it's not a regulated legal practice?

They say "Funds raised will support our legal case to defend a trans inclusive school against legal action." If they were actually representing the school wouldn't they say that the funds raised would support the schools legal case?

Could the real position be that they plan to apply to intervene in the case - if their application is denied they would say how terribly transphobic the judge was not allowing them to intervene but still keep the funds raised for their general cause

I would definitely question whether they have the authorisation to act for or represent the school given the school is ultimately run by the state.

Unless the government are endorsing the GLP...

Yes. It’s a squeeze. That’s why, years ago, when I went into the ladies I saw the blue hand sticking out of the bottom of the door gap straight away. Bodies normally end up pushing against the door and then you can’t open it. We shimmed over the door to push her out the way and open the door from the inside.

To fulfil Part M and Part T of building regs in non domestic buildings, any inwards hinged toilet door must have the ability to swing outwards, precisely because of collapse. You can do this in various ways with hinge keys etc. Of course schools bizarrely are under different regulations. But they too have this stipulated in DfE guidance.

In schools, delays in finding an at risk pupil and then delays opening the door can contribute to cpr being unsuccessful. That is why design is so important.

Not all toilets conform to building regs. I spoke to the people who installed some very swanky new inclusive toilet cubicles - floor to ceiling, streamlined, no hinges visible. To open the door in an emergency, you’d have to take off the whole framework.

I find it difficult to discuss this on an open forum because we are talking about real life cases. And also the potential for misuse of the information. Because that happens too - boys and men exploit the designs that keep everyone safe. The reason doors are floor to ceiling is because of voyeurism by males. Toilet design is very male orientated. Many designers still haven’t worked out not to centre the toilet in a cubicle to make allowances for a sanitary bin.

I would have thought individual changing cubicles should have to have the same mechanisms to be opened quickly from the outside outwards. Pupils are very quick to learn the techniques.

If you give them long enough, they're all 'good enough' to put their cards on the table.

And the more assertive women are, the quicker it happens. Masks get flung off at a most alarming rate

Derailing slightly - well more of a branch line, as it is relevant to the thread topic:

Imagine if the category 'transgender child' did not exist, on the basis that while there are children who are gender-questioning, there are young people who are unsettled and distressed by puberty, there are girls who are in flight from being women in a deeply misogynistic society, there are boys who are in flight from the stereotypes of masculinity they see on social media -
they should be lovingly supported, but should not be labelled 'transgender'.

Transgender is an adult designation, an adult decision, an adult category that shouldn't be imposed on children and young people.

If 'transgender child' was not a category used in educational settings, there would be no need for this disruptive debate about boys using the girls' facilities, and vice versa.

And I'm just guessing here, but if there was no accepted category 'transgender child' which brought with it lots of attention and special treatment in schools, it might be less attractive...

But their argument is flawed , the school are not banning children who believe / want to believe they are the opposite sex from changing rooms. Just that these children and young people have the same sexed bodies as their male peers , therefore they are protecting the privacy dignity and safety of a significantly larger number of teenage girls ergo doing the least amount of harm by ensuring that male bodied people change with other male bodied people

This.

@Keeptoiletssafe

Keeptoiletssafe · Today 13:35

I spoke to the people who installed some very swanky new inclusive toilet cubicles - floor to ceiling, streamlined, no hinges visible. To open the door in an emergency, you’d have to take off the whole framework.

In real life in cases like that its likely quicker and easier to misuse a fire extinguisher / prybar try break through the plasterboard from the next door stall

Many designers still haven’t worked out not to centre the toilet in a cubicle to make allowances for a sanitary bin.

That is a extra space issue.
The gap between the bowl and the wall will have a minimum regs gap measurement. To allow space for the bin a womans toilet has to be designed wider than a "mans" standard unit.

And the sanitary bin classed as "furniture" rather than a vital bit of equipment needed to stop blocked pipes

Yes. It is fascinating that the preference still comes down to sex. I have been listening to trans people’s wants and preferences.

This is the quandary the Good Law Project have because they will have men (who don’t want to be men) wanting to be in the women’s. In order for these men to be with the women, the designs will have to change to mixed sex. Which is not what they want.

You then have women (who don’t want be to women) wanting mixed sex designs. But when they actually have experience of the mixed sex designs, they don’t like them for exactly the same reasons women who are fine with being women and many men don’t like them either - they are less hygienic and they don’t feel safe.

Robin Moira White calls ‘gender- neutral’ toilets ‘ghettos’ so Robin has obviously been in some similar ones to me! Robin and Victoria McCloud want to be in the Women’s. Victoria thinks people will die if not. I don’t think that is correct. I have no evidence that that has happened or will happen. People dying in non domestic toilets die of a medical emergency from a medical condition, drugs or self-harm. The best solution to this is a small amount of visibility for supervision which means single sex toilets in a single sex environment.

There’s no way the Good Law Project can even satisfy their own trans demographic. It’s doomed from the start. The Supreme Court verdict has meant people have to look at toilet designs. It’s also why I don’t agree with the EHRC adding mixed sex provision as a quick fix solution.

Thank you.

It's also interesting isn't it that we only hear about the trans identified men's wants. It's all about men peeing wherever they want to. They want in with the (unconsenting) women. They don't want clearly labelled mixed sex or individual toilets. No-one bothers asking the TIFs.

Pretty clear what this is: toxic male entitlement to abuse of non-consenting women. As far as I'm concerned that's not the law in this country, we're not Afghanistan so they can bog off (pun intended). They'll be safe in third spaces or the men's.

Someone on here made a great point, one of those that gets you looking at the phenomenon anew, with even more cynicism.
It's a movement that facilitates men into women's spaces, which facilitates kids and teens into medicalisation.
The cos playing men are not medicalising or undergoing surgery, they're usehered in by other men and transmaidens into the spaces they want to access, and this facilitation is in itself facilitated by the pipeline of healthy but confused bodies/minds into medicalised unhealthy bodies/minds.
Men access women's spaces at no risk socially and no change medically, precisely on the back of children who enter opposite spaces with maximum change medically.
The medicalised transed child gives cover to the socially transed male.
The transing of the man permits the transing of the child.
It's a Möbius Loop, an Ouroboros snake eating itself.

I don't think the GLP can represent the school. They have no standing. They have clear political bias (which schools are prohibited from using state education funds from promoting). We need a good lawyer because I think there are probably a lot of criminal charges that could be brought if the school engage with GLP over this. Even the smallest amount of school resource (including staff time) to talk to them given their stated aim (which is presupposing a point of view and politically biased) would I think be misuse of school funds.

OP's case is with the school, not some random lefty lawyers with a political agenda.

The difficulty is you have to be very careful in working out where the person is. The fire brigade have special equipment and they go in from the top from the evidence I have. But it’s all delays that can have tragic consequences.

The size of cubicles is an interesting one and traditionally the toilets were centred for aesthetics by the person fitting them. Providers want them as small as possible so less misuse can happen inside them.