is there a thread for FWS / Prisons?

[weegielass]

Its live today on the scottish tribunals website and lasting for three days. Easy to join and good audio quality. I think that's marion on screen in the background. She seemed rather amused at the judge trying to understand the definitions.

A ‘suicide clause’ would be mis-used by ideologues to continue placing men in the female estate irrespective of the risk that man could pose to women.

That would be an excellent argument.

What if the TIM threatened suicide unless you went to lunch with them once a week, Judge? Still think acquiescing to their demands is good plan?

Indeed.

Why do they pretend that prisons aren't equipped to manage suicide threats / risk?

You'd think the only argument needed would be "as defined by the SUPREME COURT it's not legal to put ANY men in female only prisons. Please order the Scottish government/ prison system to follow the law. Thank you."
I should think even a Scottish judge could follow that argument.

There's an article today I've seen about a man imprisoned for sexual offences against children who killed himself after being bullied by the other inmates. The coroner made several recommendations, none of which were that he should have been put in a women's prison,

What about if a violent, criminal man says he's going to commit suicide unless he can rape unconsenting women? How far does this get taken?

And are we not to consider the point that when a prison-onset TIM says he'll be suicidal if not placed in the women's estate he might be lying and what he might be saying is that he'll be suicidal (or possibly just really unhappy) if he can't continue to abuse women?

I don't understand because putting men in the women's estate, whatever that man's gender identity, is already a crime as far as I can tell and a human rights abuse. So if you're going to allow that crime, what other crimes against women now magically become non-crimes because the Scottish Government wants them to be? Rape? Murder? It's a human rights abuse under international law already.

Most male abuse never gets to court. Just because a man isn't convicted of rape or violence against woman, doesn't mean he's never done that or isn't a risk to all women. The category that he belongs to that is relevant in terms of assessing risk is that he's male and has 160% the punch power of women.

This report says that O'Neil is arguing that biological females who identify as men belong in the male estate.

Is he?? Or has the BBC reporter got confused?

Does anyone know what he means by this? English prisons don't mandate separation by sex?

No, he wasn't, he I think said, they could be accommodated in a separate female facility.

He mostly said that this was outside the scope of his argument and is for SPS to manage.

I don't agree with him on this.

Yes I wondered this. I thought it was covered by prison law from c 1917?

What time does it resume, anyone know?

If prisons in Scotland are anything like those in England, the obvious answer to the problem of suicidality among prisoners (and the shocking numbers of actual prisoner deaths by suicide) is to spend more money on prisons. Make them fundamentally decent places where at least minimal standards of safety, respect and efficiency can be implemented.

As a PP has said, you should be able to control risks of suicide in secure accommodation. And it's not just a matter of control and security. It's about treating every prisoner with appropriate respect and concern.

A system that so profoundly dehumanises the people governed by it, and then fixates on just one aspect of a small number of prisoners (i.e. their trans identity) and showers it with a super-concentrated dose of the respect that is denied in every other circumstances is bizarre to the point of black comedy.

I was listening, he absolutely didn't say that. He did get a bit flustered and tried to make the point that this case (the TIF) is really outside the point of what he's arguing against. Which he's right about.

It's quite clearly a bit of a straw man (woman?NB?) argument in terms of the main point of the FWS challenge. And it's a TRA tactic intended to confuse. So not surprising the BBC reporter was confused.

I felt that after a bit of floundering (the very purpose of bringing up the TIF gotcha) AO correctly identified it as a straw person argument and got back on track with the main point.

As a PP said it's self-evidently ludicrous that any woman would be more at risk from another woman, however much body modification she has than a man.

What I understood he said was that the two cases of TIMs and TIFs are separate and distinct, and that he is here to argue the case against TIMs in women's prisons.

I'm just pondering whether the Scottish Government thinks convicted criminals can self-ID into the category of non-criminals and be instantly released?

That really doesn't seem any more bonkers than thinking men can self-ID into the category of women and women's prisons.

I could see the Guardian’s resident TRA journalist Libby Brooks was watching this morning.

I’m interested to read how she spins the SPS housing multiple male murderers/torturers in the women’s estate.

@womendeserveequalhumanrights There have been cases where the sentence is reduced or just put on probation as the TIM would have extra stress from going to prison!

I think the case where the man was climbing in nursery bins got a reduced sentence.

Just been thinking about reduced or shorter sentences for women. It is usually attributed to their caring responsibilities, so to help someone other than the offender.

All the TIM's cases are are to help the TIM's, no benefit for anyone else.

Looks like the Court is back.

We need a horrified emoji response. That's horrendous. Truly horrendous.

“There isn’t a trans veto on women’s spaces”

LOVE IT!!!

Here we are again with the normal depressing absolute insanity.

If a pedophile threatens suicide can he be provided with non consenting children as a mental health medication/therapeutic resource?

Many men in prison have significant mental health issues. Why are these special men supposed to be entitled to life saving measures that are so drastic they involve removing the human rights and legal rights from every single woman occupant, but other men aren't?

What is WITH this bloody nonsense that women as a sex class (and we know who and what women are always in this particular line of thinking, no genital checks needed) being viewed as male-owned resources to which men have an entitlement? And it's women's bodies. Be frank about this. That's the only part the men require; people with female biology. Blokes who like knitting, can't read maps and giggle won't do. This is mostly waffling about which men have which entitlement to be handed women like a parcel to meet their needs on.

As if women are just inanimate objects. We're not even at the medieval stage of wondering if those women have souls, never mind that they legally have equal human rights to men and are not bloody property. Or therapy aids.

If those with TQ identities wish to wholly reject their sex and have that respected then whatever. That means creating two new sexes - TIF and TIM and providing facilities accordingly. TIF prisons and TIM prisons. The authorities can then work out how they cost that since it's the problem they chose to create. The answer to these men cannot be a gift of non consenting women, female humans are not fucking gift baskets.

That.

One TIM is obviously infinitely more precious than an entire prison full of women.

WTF is this not being challenged? And discussed as if in some mad world it's a rational conversation to have?

I've often wondered whether the TIM was the real motive, or whether the judge was trying to manage the stress and chaos that TIM would cause absolutely everyone else involved in custody.