How do navigate things with older/adult dc who are pro-trans ideology if you are not?

[Fancycrab]

Just wondering those of you who are GC and have teenagers or young adult dc who strongly support trans ideology, how do you navigate this? Do you just agree not to discuss it? Does it ever interfere with your relationship? My DD is still little but her dad, who I’m separated from is very pro trans rights and believes the whole gender ideology bollocks. I worry that he will brainwash DD into believing it too when she’s older and she’ll end up seeing me as the uncool, unprogressive one who just “doesn’t get it” 🙄

I'm not here to be 'seen as a woman.' I have learned about gender critical beliefs and nothing thus far in the responses I've received has been shocking. Posters are literally acting to the letter of how gender critical people share and enforce their beliefs. As this is gender critical space, my expectation is the beliefs to be extra spicy and have not been disappointed.

I have more than 40 years experience informing my statments. I also have the awareness of someone who was seen as 'other.' I know how 'other' feels. I am not other.

I absolutely believe gender critical women can accept gender non conformity. It would probably surprise you to learn my best friend in my 20s was a second wave radical feminist. For the most part, I personally don't see much radical in gender criticism. There's a lot more contraction and limitation in gender critical beliefs than expansion and inclusion. Also, sex.

@onepostwonder thank you. That means you would consider (to refer to very public figures) India Willoughby as a woman and Alex Drummond as a man?

There's a lot more contraction and limitation in gender critical beliefs than expansion and inclusion. Also, sex.

This is utter bullshit though. GCs believe there is no right or wrong way to be male or female.

It is gender ideology that believes certain behaviours or expressions are indications that you are 'misaligned' with your sex in some way

If you’re not here to be seen as a woman (do you mean in life or on MN?) why do you insist trans women are women, and not just be content to be a man presenting himself how he wants to? Genuine question?

I think the bit I meant you may be shocked by is that we are all normal women. You will certainly have people in your life with GC views who don’t express them to you. The vast majority of people I express my views to, agree, they are often just afraid to say it. We all encounter trans people. We can have these views and care about trans people, but see the world differently.

“also suspect workplaces, private businesses, public spaces and government buildings will all suddenly be thrown into chaos by people who cannot accept sex non-conformance in their spaces. There will be many unhappy non trans people and I won't write anything about violence because this post will be removed.”

Why would any of those places not be able to deal with people who do not conform to their sex category stereotypes after the EA code is released ? There are many people in the world who do not conform to sex stereotypes, they still use either a mixed sex toilet / changing room provision or they use the provision for their sex category.

I think you have just force teamed those who are sex non-conforming in your language.

And no, “workplaces, private businesses, public spaces and government buildings” are not going to be thrown into chaos by the guidelines at all. That is just hyperbole.

Instead, those organisations involved will simply make it clear that male people never change sex, despite all the philosophising that some of them do to convince themselves and others that they do. They will then have to make alternative solutions available for those male people who refuse to use the male single sex provision.

And it is also hyperbolic emotional manipulation to suggest that violence will be in anyway involved because of this decision.

I may. I might also suggest how I feel about them doesn't matter to them or to you in any form of value and am only one person and not the society they exist within.

There is a whole lot of gaslighting being done on these threads at the moment.

As a publicly vocal "be kind" TWAW advocate in my communities, I suspect there are gender critical women more likely concerned about risking friendships than trying to coddle my fragile trans ego.

So I see. I haven't been around much the last few weeks.

I have my early experience at being sex non conforming. You don't have to believe me when I said it was awkward for everyone. I said I have no proof it will happen. In fact I would hope really good protections would be introduced should the guidance direct culture in that direction and chaos does not ensue. But this is the UK. We do chaos.

My DS (29) is a manga loving software engineer, autistic, raised in a family of geeks, who have always been tolerant of differences. He told me 2 years ago with full assurance in his voice that TWAW. I had not been paying close attention to gender identity theory at that stage. As a second generation feminist I shared my views with him - we did not agree and he was shocked. More recently we agreed to trade some evidence to educate each other. I sent him a couple of things and he was going to research things that would convince me. This was 6 months ago and I have yet to receive anything from him. I think he's finding it a harder task then he appreciated to present me with any robust evidence that there is no harm to women in accepting that TWAW or that JK Rowling is a bigot.

I don't think he has changed his views much on the surface. His friends all hold these views and some of these friends are trans and he will want to support them. But I think that he has stopped thinking that all people who do not agree are necessarily bad people. He has at least given this a bit more thought.

This is the only contentious issue that we don't talk about in our family. We usually love a good argument but we don't talk about this one - that is his request. He is aware that both of this highly educated parents are GC and have a lot of reasons for their points of view and he is edging towards giving those more consideration. Tides are turning.

And you do catastrophising.

No. It won’t be chaos because the issues are workable if people respect the law. It will mean that any male person who decides they are the person who decides that they should use the female single sex provision and not the law will find there are legal consequences for making that decision.

Already organisations have decided to follow the law and there has not been chaos. But sure … if male people who ignore female people’s consent and their right to exclude all male people (even those who say they are female but are still male) are who you are talking about being thrown into ‘chaos’, then yes, I guess those male people will be. But they are not organisations, they are individuals.

“I have my early experience at being sex non conforming”

sure. As have I. As have many other people on this discussion board.

Do you understand that (leaving aside IW in the first place) whether AD is recognized by society as a woman or not does matter to me?
Because that means AD gets to claim women's awards, AD's salary is recorded as a woman's salary when questioning whether my workplace's salary policy is fair, and AD may be in my workplace's toilets ?

I couldn't care less about whether AD's friends refer to AD as "mate" Or "my gal", though.

So dd was very be kind…she has come round to my way of thinking about this subject since she moved out

ds1 and his husband have come round to agree with certain aspects but the discussion is less following the ruling..son in law does have a few strange thoughts about some aspects of (I don’t know how to phrase this) gay culture but is open to discussion and arguments. I think they both understand where I am coming from but don’t understand my ‘passion’ on the issue

ds2 just doesn’t understand why I am bothered by it

they all understand that I have no problem with people being trans just how it can affect women

if you are a TW, you can only consider yourself to be “sex-nonconforming” if you understand yourself to be a man, not a woman. Genderism is all about trying push those who don’t conform to gender stereotypes out of their sex class and into someone else’s via performing the opposite sex stereotypes, and experimental medical treatments.

I was a tomboy, liked stereotypical “boy” interests and was often mistaken for a boy as I had short hair and wore “boy” clothes. I wasn’t a boy, I was a girl and nothing could change that. As a child I wished I was a boy, but I learned that embracing my body as it was and accepting the reality of being a woman, while doing my own thing in my own way was an option. As being a feminine man is for men. That is nonconformism - being different from the stereotype for your sex. Not deciding you’re a different sex, slotting into the sexist stereotypes for that sex and trying to change your sex - which is physically impossible and tends to induce medical harms.

I don’t call myself gc cos people have a weird idea about what it means

including ds1 husband!

As you know, most trans people are ignoring the early guidance implementations.

Shitty behaviour

Shitty situation.

Tell them your views once and leave it at that.

My views are that sex is immutable and I am gender critical. You are your biological sex and it cant change. There are 2 sexes and everything else is just personality.

If they start on intersex - that isnt a third sex. That's an anomaly within the confines of male and female sex. It has no relevance to trans anyway.

Then refuse to engage. Just say, you know how I feel on the matter, my views havent and wont change. Move on.

My experience was that pre-Suprene Court decision, trans people were ignoring TWAW/TMAM in a sensible way. Working in a hospital, trans patients would tell us they were trans and would usually get a side room if on a ward of mixed bays; that may be an additional privilege but was also pragmatic. Working directly with trans outpatients was sex neutral anyway and although I found the work personally intolerable and don’t think it should be offered on the NHS, it was just about possible to do it in a sex neutral way. The only trans staff member I’m aware of worked as a paramedic, where we culturally expect mixed sex teams anyway and staff provision is usually neutral (I know another trans paramedic as well which is interesting to me, I think both were female).

Id expect the same to continue most of the time, and I hope therefore that the madness of absolute TWaW and never admitting sex is left in the dust and we can return to pragmatism.

You'd only conclude that if you value men's desires over women's safety and dignity.

At least we know where you stand 🙄

We know where he stands, believe me.
It's all there on the school thread.

I have not come across this poster prior to this thread. Seems like I'd have been better stating that way.

Horrendous misogyny in full view.