How do navigate things with older/adult dc who are pro-trans ideology if you are not?

[Fancycrab]

Just wondering those of you who are GC and have teenagers or young adult dc who strongly support trans ideology, how do you navigate this? Do you just agree not to discuss it? Does it ever interfere with your relationship? My DD is still little but her dad, who I’m separated from is very pro trans rights and believes the whole gender ideology bollocks. I worry that he will brainwash DD into believing it too when she’s older and she’ll end up seeing me as the uncool, unprogressive one who just “doesn’t get it” 🙄

My son is 22. I don’t think I have ever had a discussion with him about it. Tbh we don’t have detailed discussions about most issues.

His best friend’s sibling has transitioned. He has two cousins who’ve transitioned. A very close friend of mine has a spouse who has come out as non binary in their 30s - I will be amazed if they don’t transition further in the future. He works in IT. He has his pronouns on his Linked In profile. So I’m certain he has views about it. If I had to guess they would be ‘live and let live’ which I approve of generally.

I believe he knows that I’m not in the same place as him, which is why he doesn’t bring it up. I was very upset when one of our cousins had a bilateral mastectomy, and when another had their penis removed. I work often with people with post-surgical complications, so he knows my views about commercial medicine and cosmetic surgery.

There's no reason why LGB people wouldn't also support 'white pride' you know. Just because someone is gay it doesn't mean they identify with left wing causes. They may even back Israel.

Section 28 made promotion of homosexuality a crime. Bad law is eventually repealed. There aren't many people who led the charge for and/or supported Section 28 proudly taking credit these days.

It’s a stretch calling the Equality Act 2010 bad law, given it outlaws discrimination on the grounds of (among other things) gender reassignment such as you yourself have undergone, and I suspect it’s not in your interest to see it repealed.

But if TRAs were campaigning to change the law that at least would be honest and preferable to the present dishonest attempts to misrepresent and ignore it.

I honestly don't know what is going to happen with it. My life experience would inform my belief that should law shift any more toward the mitigation of trans people within gendered space (Yes, sex, gender critical beliefs and all that...), life will become awkward for both trans and non-trans people. If you think gender critical people are the majority now, I suspect people will become much more vocal in their beliefs.

It isn't a bad law unless you believe male desire to live out a fantasy should legally erase actual women's rights, dignity and safety. There is no comparison to section 28 at all. You are truly being ridiculous here. Transwomen are not actually women trapped in male bodies they are and always remain males in male bodies and legally they should be regarded as such. The imposed collective delusion is over and its time to accept that.

Trans people around the world would disagree with your characterisation of trans people. Trans women are women. Etc.

If a woman is not necessarily a person born with a female body, how would you describe this "woman" that transwomen feel/believe/know that they are?

I know it will be "different for everybody" up to a point, in the same way that if you ask a bunch of people to draw a tree, no two trees would be exactly alike. But there has to be some commonalty, otherwise using a single word for all of them is meaningless.

"A not-man" doesn't suffice as a definition because you then need a definition of a "man" to not be.

Trans women are women only if you accept that 'women' is the word used to describe a set of stereotypical characteristics that can be mimicked through surgery, hormones and dressing up.

The biology of women and men is absolutely amazing. To have a body that is designed to conceive, nurture and give birth is not a small inconsequential thing. For men being able to have an erection is an impressive feat of bioengineering. The biology around which we are built is amazing. That it sometimes doesn't work for some people is a great shame and can result in heartbreak.

I feel very sorry for trans people who feel that they should have been born a different sex than they were. I understand that in this case they may wish to dress, behave and describe themselves as other than their biological sex - i.e. trans, non-binary, gender fluid. The solution is not to require everyone else to pretend that through artificial means, cosmetics and costume, trans people are able to become exactly what they wish to be.

When transwomen say that they are more of a woman than a biological woman - see India, Freda, etc. it becomes clearer that for those people transition is about sexuality, and a particularly worrisome male-centric sexualisation of women as object.

Nope, TWANW and TMANM. Appearance and inner conviction are not enough.

As you ask me for my description. I can speak best about my own experience and extrapolate from there.

I was evaluated as a child, transitioned with no roadmap or permission as a teen and had sex reassignment surgery in my 20s. Based on gender theory, I believe gender is real and manifests culturally in place of sex where (some common gender critically identified) sex-based facts don't impact social belonging or interaction. I personally don't desire to be a gender, I don't identify as a gender. But, I can feel gender when it appears in my life.

There are a lot of birth sex-driven traits that cannot change once puberty has occurred. i would think most trans people are affected by that and feel awkward and damaged by their experience. Added to this would likely include being ensnared by elements of gender-based socialisation. As you say about trees, I understand there are trans people who do not share my experience, but (subject to contexts and motivations as I am speaking about my personal belief here), I believe if a person transitions, they are just as trans as I am. I don't believe trans experience is a something anyone can gate keep.

I am a woman and as much as it throws gender critical people into straw man creating spasms, my life has been and is unquestioned and uncontested by all who know me. I socially became a woman when I reached adulthood. I know I am a woman based on my interactions with the world around me and the limitations and opportunities I've experienced. Before and during transition, I experienced what life would be like if the world had seen me as what non LGBTQ people would call 'queer.'

But that said, I would find it difficult to ungender any trans person who has moved through the world for a number of years regardless of whether or not they are seen as queer. My left-leaning beliefs would feed into my good faith assumption that people who follow a different path of transition to become a new sex and interact with the world as a new gender.

There are innumerable examples of men who suddenly and unexpectedly declare trans woman identity status. Personally, I see "trans" as a process rather than an identity. I'd evaluate the context and progression of this announcement before feeling any affinity.

The world that existed when I went through the process doesn't exist anymore. Trans wasn't a word. Gender wasn't discussed, Trans inclusion was decades away. There was just sex. Gender is real and woman is a gender all over the world.

I would also add that "trans" has become a label that describes people I feel no affiliation with. Depending on the individual I may have personal feelings about their identity. Ultimately, others define it now as an identity rather than a process. I can choose to be kind or ignore it. I don't agree with everyone who identifies as a Briton. But we share the label.

Sorry @onepostwonder but you are not replying to the post you're quoting. It asked you to "describe this woman that you know you are", and your answer is " I am a woman and this is unquestioned".

Unless you mean that you appear to be a woman to all eyes and that makes you one? Ie if I met you and thought you were a woman as I understand it, and adult human female, it would confirm that you are one? But if I recognize the male in you you aren't ?

Genuinely asking.

Bingo! You just played the race card.
First of all, I think transgender people exist, in their own minds. However, from what we have seen on the occasions that women come together to support women's rights, transwomen exhibit typical male behaviour traits, including misogyny, rage and violence. This is of course, no surprise, because humans cannot change sex, so transwomen remain male and will always behave like males.

I hope that you enjoy your journey back there.

Your redefinition of what I wrote is not my answer.

I believe I have a fairly good idea of who you believe to be a woman as you understand it. I know you solely restrict yourself to that belief. I don't share your belief. I said what I said.

Gender critical people recognise all non-adult human females, so why are we even discussing this?

Why do you think it will be "awkward" for males to stay out of female safe spaces? This is a genuine question.
As a male, I find it absolutely disgusting, that other males (which is what transwomen are) would wish to deliberately enter women's safe spaces, in the knowledge that they are causing distress, fear or anxiety to the women in those spaces.

I'm sorry if I redefined what you wrote, but that would be because you did not give a plain description of "woman" as was the request.

I could honestly understand the definition "woman = a person who exhibits salient traits socially associated with the female sex [such as larger eyes, sweet voice, féminine clothing etc]". I strongly disagree with this definition, but at least it is to the point, consistent and not circular, and we could agree to disagree. Same goes for "woman = a person whose sex is recorded as female on passport".

Instead you give 4 paragraphs of vague "experience". That's not a definition or a description.

Men were disgusted by me before my transition. I outed myself here as trans, that same old disgust returns just for the opposite reason. It seems trans people can't cut a break from men.

My real day to day life was awkward and caused so much chaos before I unconditionally and unreservedly started using women's spaces. No one here will believe the number of mothers who had to instantly have awkward discussions about sex and gender with their girls because they would shout 'why is that girl going into the boys?' as I would enter the men's toilet.

I have no proof, but I also suspect workplaces, private businesses, public spaces and government buildings will all suddenly be thrown into chaos by people who cannot accept sex non-conformance in their spaces. There will be many unhappy non trans people and I won't write anything about violence because this post will be removed.

There will be many unhappy non trans people and I won't write anything about violence because this post will be removed.

Have any of your other posts been removed?

Women are the (give or take) half of people gendered as women by society. Women also fight to exist outside of social definitions, but society still genders non-conformists as women within certain limitation.

Several countries use religious definitions to guide their gendering of women. Others use evolving understandings. The UK and US are trying to legislate sex as the only meaning of the words man and woman, male and female. Words are not lived.

I, like anyone else, will assume a gender until I am corrected. I'm not quite at the ask everyone for pronouns stage.

At least two. One about my rape and another about being jumped outside a 'third space' in school. I haven't returned to check for more.

When your dc grow up, you possibly end up with very different views.

As adults, we respect that everyone has different views and thats fine.
We don't discuss Trans issues in any depth in our house due to this.
Same as politics, we respect we all have e different opinions.

none in this thread to my knowledge. I'm just more aware of how this website operates now, i think.

None on this thread as far as I can see and two deleted posts for someone who posts as much as you isn't that bad really, it's part and parcel of a public discussion forum.

my life has been and is unquestioned and uncontested by all who know me.

@onepostwonder , I do say this kindly because I think MN offers a wonderful insight into how people really think, and it is often very confronting. If you go back through this thread you will read the views of numerous women including myself, who do not routinely navigate the world telling people like yourself that we do not and will never see you as a woman. But this is our view and we speak up to try and prevent further harm to women, children and young people. Trans people too, I feel we speak to limit harm to them by not lying to them (although I know some feel I am by not confronting every time - here is the debate).

The fact no one has ‘contested’ you is no proof at all that everyone agrees with you, some will and some won’t, they just care about you as a person.

You seem to think GC women ‘cannot accept sex non conformity’ which is misinformed. Maybe yes some trump supporting Christian types. But many of us are lifelong feminists who want a more gender neutral world like you do. We want to see more girls with short hair again. We want boys to wear make up if they fancy it. Boys and girls to be any kind of boy or girl they want to be. We just know that none of that makes male or female, it’s just stereotypes. Sex is real and can never be changed, no matter how much longing, and the reasons for separating by sex are real - there are many men who want to harass and kill us.