How do navigate things with older/adult dc who are pro-trans ideology if you are not?

[Fancycrab]

Just wondering those of you who are GC and have teenagers or young adult dc who strongly support trans ideology, how do you navigate this? Do you just agree not to discuss it? Does it ever interfere with your relationship? My DD is still little but her dad, who I’m separated from is very pro trans rights and believes the whole gender ideology bollocks. I worry that he will brainwash DD into believing it too when she’s older and she’ll end up seeing me as the uncool, unprogressive one who just “doesn’t get it” 🙄

If your DD is little you don’t need to discuss it other than reinforcing the message that girls (and boys) can do and be anything they want, lots of different ways to be a girl etc.
Trans is becoming very uncool in my DDs age group now (14) it’s usually met with an eye roll,
so by the time your DD is older it’s likely she’s going to think her Dad is uncool than you!

Don’t let her father brainwash her - I’ll bet you spend more time with her than he does.

be very clear - humans can’t change sex.

my kids have trans friends and think I’m impolite about trans people but they know humans can’t change sex. DD has a female NB friend who is clearly just a young lesbian. If they suggested using men’s facilities DD would think they’d lost their mind and can see the clear and obvious danger. Helpfully one of Ds’s friends is also very obvious that his transness is a fetish/sexually motivated. If I ever want to win an argument I always say “Do you want “Jenny” in the changing room with your little sister” and he mumbles “no” and I win!

Do so. He obviously didn't get the message the first time. DD is much the same, equates trans to gay and says that being gay used to be considered a mental illness. I tend to stop there because essentially you are getting into how people feel and it's beyond me to explain that being gay is not just a 'feeling' and is a sexual orientation that is documented for thousands of years, and trans is not. Also that being gay never included chopping off bits of your body, or taking opposite sex hormones, even in the twentieth century. Huff.

Actually, it's a violation of what a child can see to tell them to 'be kind' in this way. Also, it teachers girls in particular (but boys too) to disregard their boundaries, which is dangerous. Explain to DD that you can't change sex and that a man is a man whatever he says he is.

Very much this.

I think that’s what this poster is saying though. It’s true that there are males and females that wish they were the opposite. That doesn’t mean they are or they can change sex. I didn’t read this as ‘be kind’ and agree, I read it as ‘be respectful to everyone as long as they are to you. That doesn’t mean mean you agree with delusion but you respect people.

We don't really discuss it.
There would be rows, otherwise.

None of us bring it up, because we know what the other party things. But if it comes up naturally:

1. If we’re my house I’ll say what I think - that when a man puts a dress on he is still a man. That women should not have to put up with men in their sports, loos, changing rooms, wards, rape crisis centres etc. My kids roll their eyes slightly, like I’m an old person who has said something racist.
2. If we’re at their houses or out and about I’ll button it.

I was kinda scratching around with DD when she had a close friend who was a trans boy. The problem resolved itself the first time that she ran out onto a hockey field to face a team that fielded two transgirls. She was severely not happy and had a practical lesson about the difference between sex and gender that has stayed with her ever since.

My previous workplace used to give out all the various "sexuality" buttons during June, with a little map of what they meant. 11 year old girls, apparently, are 90% lesbian, pansexual, or asexual.

So, yes, possibly they are being influenced by what they are being taught at school. It doesn't make you awful to think that.

I really feel sad that I have this situation with my lovely DS in his early 20s. He is just the smartest, most thoughtful person who could always see through inconsistencies and illogical arguments immediately as a child. I cannot understand why he's on board with it all but he is angry with me for voicing GC views when he was growing up. It's frustrating as he seems to think i am "anti-trans", but he doesn't want me to talk about it - so we can't discuss it and hear each other's views, and I can't explain that IMO simply understanding the reality of sex and wanting to protect women, gay people and children from harm is not anti-trans, I don't hate people for being trans and I most certainly don't hate gender nonconformity.

OTOH I have a teen DD who's very feminist, no-nonsense and not falling for it (though she does respect her trans ID-ing friends' pronouns etc). I would have predicted they'd be the other way around.

As a PP said:
She and her friends have said that it is all the "odd" kids at school who identify as non-binary etc, which is quite sad really.

Even my DS told me this, despite being on board with it. My DD has also pointed it out - it's kids who don't fit in, are bullied, are autistic, gay or very often who are struggling with their home life. One of her friends has come through being NB, a trans boy and is now a happy girl again, but it was all closely linked to her parents' separation and going through a traumatic time.

I'm GC as is DH. My DD sits on the fence with it all. My DS is currently experiencing serious gender dysphoria so it is very much front and centre in my life although we don't discuss our feelings about trans ideology often as it is very difficult at the moment.

But what does 'respect people' mean in this context, if not 'agree with them and use their preferred pronouns'? If you're confusing other adults here, this could certainly be a confusing message to give a child.

If you mean 'we don't laugh at them', probably best to be clear.

Respect means to look up to / admire. My mum used to say 'respect has to be earnt, not demanded' and I think she's right. I certainly don't respect people simply for existing (or for wanting to be the opposite sex).

Edit: sorry wrong quote, should have been @Blondieeeee

One of the things I find interesting is that among my older kids (and it is less of a thing now with my younger teens) is that so so many of the trans friends they have are clearly having other issues, but they don't quite want to make the leap that there is a relationship. Autism is the least of it - a few with abusive mothers, a few with personality disorders, one with psychotic episodes, one who is maybe a sociopath.

They've actually distanced themselves from a lot of these kids but they won't challenge the concepts of GI. It's like they can't make that leap.

I would take the piss. It’s a low blow but easy to expose their naivety and misogyny.

But most mainstream kids know anyway. The ones who wear tie dye and pride badges just give weird, insecure and not cool. They’re not taken seriously by the silent majority.

I understand your point and it is important to be clear. But respect also means ‘due regard for the feelings and rights of others’. It must be a horrible thing to be a kid who’s been led to believe that they can be the opposite sex and finds others don’t agree, or struggling with whatever related underlying issues there might be and not getting great support.

I can be clear with my children that everyone has the right to be treated with care, without telling them everyone has the right to get what they want. We can disagree respectfully, nothing to do with admiration or acquiescence.

This is another ‘reality’ problem the TQ movement encounter.

The LGB movement succeeded in the end because as gay people came out, those around them realised that other than their sexuality, there was little difference between gay and straight people.

People with trans identities are significantly over represented by people with neurodevelopmental differences, mood disorders, personality disorders, narcissistic traits etc. Those around them tend to find it exhausting after a while and it is evident that transphobia isn’t the cause of their issues and that a lot more than a ‘gender identity’ is in play.

You are a bully.

no.

Entertaining this rubbish is what got us here in the first place. Believing in gender ideology is as stupid and short sighted as thinking the earth is flat or 5G gives you covid.

I am honestly a bit disappointed at how many "be quiet and don't say anything" comments there are on this thread. It's not ok to just let it go. I would not in a million years let an incident go without comment if for example someone said to me with a straight face something awful like black people are sub intelligence to whites, or women shouldn't be allowed to vote - opinions a few fringe people do hold - this is just as harmful, just as demonstrably wrong

Those opinions have been very rightfully pushed out of any polite conversation at all and it was because people challenged them when they were aired, intelligently, clearly and yes sometimes by taking the piss

It is NOT ABOUT BEING KIND

this opinions are CORROSIVE to the fabric of society and they MUST be called out at every turn

I guess I just worry that with dd’s dad being so pro GI (and he has a lot of influence over her) he may encourage her to question her gender identity as she gets older, or even now. And that, combined with how prevalent this is in society & schools, and her being a girl and knowing how many young girls think they’re non-binary or even trans, may lead her to question whether she’s “really a girl”.
I don’t like thinking like this, it really doesn’t align with my values. It makes me feel like those homophobic parents who turn the tv off if there’s a gay character on, in case their kid discovers gay people exist and are therefore encouraged to “be gay” themselves, which is ridiculously ignorant because people are born gay and it’s not something you choose. I guess some trans & NB people would argue that they were born that way & didn’t choose it but I don’t believe that (for the vast, vast majority anyway).

Her dad took her to trans pride in London last year with his GI mates. I’ve told him I don’t want her going this year because it’s just not an appropriate place for a young child. There’s so many hateful banners & signs saying horrible stuff. Plus why the fuck does she need to go and celebrate trans people? She’s not trans, I’m not, her dad isn’t. No one she’s particularly close to is. Who is it for?! But sadly I don’t think I have any control over whether he takes her again or not.

I don’t have any evidence to suggest her dad is encouraging her to question her gender identity or anything and I’m probably worrying unnecessarily. She’s very much a typical girl, even though I don’t believe in gender stereotypes & have tried to raise her very gender neutral with lots of varied “boys” & “girls” toys, clothes & activities, she naturally gravitates more towards dresses and playing with dolls and has lots of female friends and her dad encourages who she naturally is too. So he’s not doing anything wrong as far as I can see. Although he did once say to me “we don’t know yet, she might be trans” 🙄 I just worry that his views may influence how she sees herself but I realise I’m probably overreacting!

It doesn't sound like you are overreacting. I'd suggest you don't set yourself up in opposition to him and his views. Stick to teaching her about biology, and being comfortable with her own body.

I agree that keeping quiet has allowed this pernicious ideology to get a hold, but there's a time and a place.

OP i would absolutely put your relationship with your daughter first and politics second, given the tricky situation with her dad. Don't ever make her feel she must pick a side.

Teach age appropriate biology and critical thinking. Talk about different people having different ideas. The phrase 'hmm, I wonder why they/ you think that? could be useful further down the line.

Best of luck, it sounds really difficult.

I feel sad reading this - sad to see how much care we (women) take in speaking to people who want men to have access to women’s private spaces. We feel such a great need to be compassionate, to seem reasonable, to avoid being seen as ‘trump supporters’. It’s as though despite knowing that we need to assert ourselves - in order to protect basic rights - we feel deep shame about doing so. Shame that men would not feel for a minute in protecting their basic rights.

I just say to my kids that any man who seeks to promote male access to single sex spaces is promoting rape culture- either deliberately, as an entitled misogynist, or out of thoughtless, irresponsible idiocy, as a half baked misogynist.

I believe this: and I believe we should not be ashamed to call rape culture & misogyny & male entitlement what they are.

OP, what would your rection be if your ex was taking your child to white pride marches? Would you be as gentle and conceding as you seem to feel you need to be in this context - or would you say outright to your daughter that you disapprove fundamentally of this, that you regret she is being taken to these events, and that you think these marches are deplorable? Because that’s how I see taking a child on trans pride marches - only involving hatred of women, and male supremacy, rather than ethnic supremacy.

I have run out of sympathy and politeness for the people who treat women’s kindness as a way to abuse and exploit us. They abuse us, and when we stand up for ourselves, they shout that we’re trump supporters, or unkind, or unfeminine, or harridans, or ignorant. This is just what male domination looks like, and always has done.

Teaching the knowledge is sufficient. You can't teach critical thinking, it emerges (being a primary competence in humans) from having the relevant knowledge. You can see this with a simple thought experiment by attempting to think critically about topic of which you have little knowledge, e.g. asteroids, quantum theory, ecclesiastical history.

I was at an event recently (older crowd) where Harry Potter was mentioned by the compere in passing.

There was a single boo from the audience, and the compere hastily backpedalled, saying, "But unlike JKR, I am pro trans rights!" The booer prissily thanked her.

But there was silence from the rest of the audience throughout the exchange. No resounding cheer of support following the ritual denunciation of Evil Wizard Lady. It was awkward, and the second compere moved things swiftly along - "Ooh, bit controversial!"

I found the chilly silence heartening. Hopefully it indicates the Silent Majority are utterly sick of this divisive shit.