Isn’t AGP also what every woman experiences when they get dressed up & feel good about themselves?

[Theboredpanda]

I have no agenda here. I’ve always just been interested in exploring other perspectives of debates…although I’m sure this particular thought will get flamed on here and end up very one-sided indeed 🤣
I don’t believe every trans woman has AGP, but I believe a significant proportion do. And I’ve always considered that proportion to be creepy, I feel anger at the fact these men get to walk around, at least in some circles, socially accepted as women, just so they can satisfy a sexual fetish. However, I was thinking about how I feel as a woman who’s comfortable and happy about being a woman when I get dressed up in my favourite sexy outfit and put on some makeup. It makes me feel sexy. Not sexually aroused but I do feel sexy. Is that vastly different to what a trans woman feels like when they get dressed up and look (at least in their eyes) like a woman? Could it be that it’s either not AGP and we all feel sexy when we know we look good as the gender we are or want to be…or everyone’s a bit AGP when they think they look sexy because they therefore feel sexy? Or is this a totally unoriginal thought that’s already been troped out by TRAs and actually there is a huge difference??

But most people here won’t be ready for that sort of conversation and blindly refuse to discuss any of the similarities between the things said about trans people and what has been said previously about gay people.

I assure you this has been discussed at length.

The main difference is that it is possible to have a romantic and or sexual relationship with someone of the same sex.

It is not possible to change sex.

The comparison suggests a rather homophobic assumption that gay men are not proper men and lesbians not proper women.

Haven't RTFT yet but wanted to point out that men with AGP also get turned on by non-sexy stuff - handbags, eye shadow, tan-coloured tights, being called a mum... Anything female-coded. They are aroused by the idea of themselves as a woman. This is not the same as an actual woman getting dolled up, looking in the mirror, thinking "Damn! Still got it!" and walking out of the door with a spring in her step. It's not a matter of degree - it's a different thing. The equivalent for women would be autoANDROphilia.

AGP is a humiliation fetish brought on by watching too much p0rn, especially of a certain type called sissy-p0rn in which women and girls are humiliated and brutalised even more than usual.
Genevieve Gluck of Reduxx has plenty of receipts and has written about this on her substack.
https://substack.com/@genevievegluck

An organ which performs a life essential function several times a day? Nope. & yes when we are discussing gender reassignment surgery breasts are “just tissue” because it is breast tissue which is removed. The function of the breast as an organ does not have to be taken into account. It does in bottom surgery for male bodies.

I honestly can’t believe I’m having to debate the difference between a breast reduction and the removal of a penis…God help us. Anyone thinking the wording of this matters is being willfully obtuse.

Does your fanny get wet when you get your hair done and put on a nice outfit?
If so, you are very unusual, and maybe you also experience AGP. I certainly don't feel that way and nor do any female friends I've ever spoke to about anything.

I think it's great transwomen mostly keep their cocks! The two I know who didn't have suffered, sadly.

Other than that, I envy your innocence. Vulnerable teenage girls are far more influenced by their peers, youth club mentors and tik tok than Tesco! And the proof is in the pudding, so to speak, re mastectomies. Which are a different op to breast reductions btw.

"Female penis" is an accepted phrase for people who believe in gender ideology. "Male breasts" isn't. Nobody into gender ideology ever wants to confront the fact that many women experience sexual pleasure through their breasts. The idea of a gender non conforming woman experiencing pleasure this way has no place in porn culture. Breasts are only allowed as an expression of feminity to be consumed by the male gaze

@CassOle
Sorry - totally cross-posted with you!

im assuming from our latest visitor that trans Reddit have seen this thread

Absolutely nothing whatsoever in your comment has anything at all to do with anything I said.

It is factually correct to say that previously people have deemed homosexuals as sexually deviant and dangerous towards vulnerable groups because of their sexuality and only that.

It is factually correct that many people believe NB/trans identifying people are sexually deviant and dangerous towards vulnerable groups because of their gender identity and only because of that.

& side note there are plenty, PLENTY of people who believe homosexuality isn’t “real” and who claim it is brought about by “overconsumption of porn”, hmm that’s sounds familiar doesn’t it?

Card carrying bisexual BTW and definately a “proper woman” so no idea where you pulled that BS from.

Given that the working parts of breasts are linked to other parts of the body, I’m pretty sure their function does have to be taken into account.

If your argument is that surgery on the urinary tract is more complicated, you are right, but breasts aren’t ‘just tissue’.

I do wonder whether there's one general Mumsnet siren on Reddit or whether there are several, either on a colour coded system or as a series of different siren sounds, depending on the subject. One for AGP, another for JKR, another for pronouns etc.

The way I understand it is that the penis is inverted to make a neo 'vagina' .
The point though, is still that it's quite usual for trans identified males to have no surgery at all, and it is of course the younger gender confused people who are actively encouraged by 'trans reddit' to try to get puberty blockers and surgery.
Breasts are not just tissue and they serve a purpose. My own dd who was caught up in all this for a while, has thankfully grown out of it and is expecting her first baby. She is very grateful that she did not take the path of sterilising herself/ removing her breasts. She would have done, if she could have, because she didn't understand the ramifications of something so radical @LucyMonth

I'm always surprised at how often this image is relevant for threads on here

Where's the tipping point between "giving a wider audience an insight into AGP" and "unwittingly being involved in some dude's humiliation kink"?

Again…please can you provide the evidence of the proof that’s in this pudding?

Yes women often do feel sexual arousal in their breasts…but I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, the penis is significantly more essential to sexual arousal (& every day function of the body) than breasts. Again I can’t believe I’m actually having to describe to adults the different in essential functionality of breasts to a penis…

I think you are incredibly naive if you think there are swathes of teenage girls having mastectomies because of TikTok and peer pressure. You speak as if 14 year olds can order one of ASOS.

I don’t think it’s the same, no, but I also think AGP is a lot rarer than people on here make it out to be. I don’t think the majority of trans women get turned on by the thought of themselves as a woman. That would fall into the cross dressing category.

You're not getting a lack of sensible discussion because it's a trans issue. You're getting a lack of sensible discussion because its an incredibly stupid take.

Look, I'm not a woman so I'm not going to pretend I know what a woman experiences when she dresses up, but I know what I experience when I put on a tux or a nice outfit, and it's certainly not getting the horn.

I have never once got a massive hard on because I'm dressed up nice. Men with AGP on the other hand definitely do when they dress up in womens clothing.

It's not the same thing.

If you are meaning me…nope I’m not from Reddit. It’s just that, believe it or not, cis women aren’t a homogeneous mass and some of us have differing views. Who knew! You can see my history on here. I post all the time.

I’m a 40 year old married woman with kids. Just a regular Mumsnet user. Not a scary Reddit troll come to disturb your echo chamber.

It has everything to do with your argument, which I think you just haven’t thought through.

Whether or not gay men were regarded as deviant, it does not follow that any fetish is harmless or that all sexual practices are acceptable. It’s you that is roping gay people into an argument about fetishes

There is a group of people who are assumed to be more prone to fetishistic behaviour - men. Generally fine in private between consenting adults. Not fine when other people are involved without their consent.

Ooh, everyone get the bingo dabbers out!

‘Cis’

So somebody who accepts gendered expectations? Like a trad wife?

Not all trans-identifying males have AGP, but AGP in a TIM isn't "feeling good about myself as a woman" or "feeling sexy"

It's getting a hard-on in their very male penis about the fantasy woman they are pretending to be an having a wank using said penis while focusing on that fantasy.

That has no equivalent in any woman's experience. A woman who feels sexy does not masturbate while visualising herself as this sexy goddess, because her sexiness is not so self-focussed and narcissistic in the same way.

Also, no sense of being transgressive. If a woman wears men’s clothes it’s just Thursday.

I’ve read an academic article which was linked to on other sites which argued that Blanchard’s questionnaire purporting to diagnose AGP in men, also diagnosed AGP if used in a normal female population. It was both saying that Blanchard’s work wasn’t all that well-founded, and that AGP was not a supportable idea based on the current evidence. I found that a good though challenging account. We are such a long way now from how research was done in the early 70s. I would pull the focus back even further - the idea of women as sexy, dress-up objects in the first place was an assumption of the culture, promoted unconsciously by the Hero male academic/clinicians who led psychiatric/sexuality services back then. I don’t think there was enough interrogation of the base assumptions in so much clinical work and certainly in transsexual clinics of the time. I don’t know enough about Freudian and post-Freudian theories of sexuality, psychiatry and how these translated into clinical work and then into clinical research.

I avoid reading the increasingly huge amount of humiliation/feminisation porn on literotica. Theres so much of it it’s genuinely becoming difficult to steer clear. I don’t read the transman porn either, which is on there. It looks quite different from 20 years ago. I don’t think people’s sexual lives and imaginations are fixed, they morph under a huge range of influences. I didnt ‘know’ I was bisexual until I was in my 40s, but I also don’t think I was as bisexual as I am now when I was younger; other strands were more important.

I guess, like LucyMonth, I am pro the argument that the urge/need to present as the opposite sex happens in different groups of people for different reasons. That’s one of the most important arguments for keeping sex as primary in law, imo.

It's absolutely the faux left equivalent of trad wife!

Name changed for this comment for very obvious reasons but I'm a (biologically female) regular.
I'm actively involved in the bdsm/kink community and run a number of groups.
There is absolutely no doubt that dressing in women's clothing and underwear is a huge sexual kink for a large number of men. If you're on fetish sites, like I am, they're pretty open about it. There are literally thousands of these men in the UK.
It's one of the reasons I am so incredibly sceptical of the 'just want to pee' narrative. Crossdressing and being seen in public in women's clothes is a common fetish.
Because I am in that community, I understand that people have fetishes and in itself, I don't have a problem with that, but any fetish play needs to be fully consensual with anyone interacting with it.
And that means you don't do it in public.
The idea that men in female clothing just want to feel nice is hopelessly naive, sorry.