Isn’t AGP also what every woman experiences when they get dressed up & feel good about themselves?

[Theboredpanda]

I have no agenda here. I’ve always just been interested in exploring other perspectives of debates…although I’m sure this particular thought will get flamed on here and end up very one-sided indeed 🤣
I don’t believe every trans woman has AGP, but I believe a significant proportion do. And I’ve always considered that proportion to be creepy, I feel anger at the fact these men get to walk around, at least in some circles, socially accepted as women, just so they can satisfy a sexual fetish. However, I was thinking about how I feel as a woman who’s comfortable and happy about being a woman when I get dressed up in my favourite sexy outfit and put on some makeup. It makes me feel sexy. Not sexually aroused but I do feel sexy. Is that vastly different to what a trans woman feels like when they get dressed up and look (at least in their eyes) like a woman? Could it be that it’s either not AGP and we all feel sexy when we know we look good as the gender we are or want to be…or everyone’s a bit AGP when they think they look sexy because they therefore feel sexy? Or is this a totally unoriginal thought that’s already been troped out by TRAs and actually there is a huge difference??

AGP is just one of many, many sexual fetishes. Men (and it is virtually always men) have a wide range of often very surprising objects and situations that they find extremely arousing.

For a man with AGP, the main arousing object of fantasy is primarily themselves. But they also often use women and girls as wholly unwilling and unconsenting supporting players in their imaginary erotic world. Hence the AGP rage at the recent Supreme Court judgment excluding them from all women's spaces.

Read the vile and talentless Andrea Long Chu to better understand AGP through this man's carefully 'explained' contempt for women. And be repulsed and horrified by his ideas of what being female means. Chu finds the idea of himself as a woman as very humiliating and therefore this is very, very exciting.

Chu writes: ‘The thesis of this little book [His mercifully short 94-page debut 'Females'] is that femaleness is a universal sex defined by self-negation.’ He is clear ‘I’ll define as female any psychic operation in which the self is sacrificed to make room for the desires of another.’

Long Chu is just another man with a humiliation kink. Yawn.

And what happens when the manly attire includes oodles of lace, full skirted coats, waistcoats embroidered within an inch of their life and high heeled shoes with bows on them?

Nice!! I wouldn't mind trying that on. I might even feel sexy. Still not aroused, though 😝

Speaking of Chu...

You are drawing a false equivalence.

The female analogue to autogynephilia in men would be autoandrophilia. The defining feature being sexual fantasies about imagining oneself as the opposite sex.

…and now quite a few more people know about AGP than before OP posted. Most will be faintly horrified.

Well done, @Theboredpanda !

Why?
Its a male only fetish so in what way are they the same

Your reaction to responses to your rather biased OP was not remotely ‘open minded’.

Quite the opposite in fact, you appear to have already decided what you deem acceptable in the tone and scope of responses.

Your reference to ‘anti trans’ people as those on the opposite side of the debate to the ‘pro trans’ crowd is rather telling.

But you have had posters discussing the question. They just didn't agree with you.

In my life experience, an AGP is a person who would use the breaking of boundaries and the women's toilets containing a five year old girl for their sexual arousal and pleasure. We used to call them perverts in the 70s and 80s.

But you don't even understand what you're asking!! The terms of your 'question' are muddled to begin with, so how can you judge the responses of those who are doing the courtesy of replying to you?!

Instead of wasting time being petulant, maybe you should listen. You might learn something.

It's a fascinating discussion point IMO although probs not with OP.

We live in a culture shaped by mysogynist porn.
No serious discussion can happen without that being acknowledged.

It's very hard draw analogies between the two sexes because the inherent and imposed/structural power differentials between men and women are too great and there is no way to step outside of them.

Gender ideology does not challenge these power differentials or porn culture in any way. Rather it is born from this situation. The big clue is that there is zero acknowledgement of the huge difference (in needs, motivation, vulnerability etc) between teenage female transmen and middle aged male transwomen. In fact it's worse - transmen and even female NBs are encouraged to get their tits removed (presumably as they no longer serve the traditional porn male gaze) while only a tiny percentage of middle aged transwomen lose their cocks. Oh, and guess which group is also encouraged to pipe down and own their "male privilege".

Some women do self objectify. There's a strong incentive to do so in a misogynistic culture. Some men have a humiliation kink, which, like female self objectification, could only exist in a society which still views women as subordinate.

Greyson Perry is unique in being candid on AGP. He even said that society's general acceptance of cross dressing men makes the kink harder to fulfil. Most other men with AGP still insist they are actually women. Some like to present intellectually weak arguments over and over on Mumsnet, perhaps getting that humiliation kick that way?

They aren’t the same thing OP but I’m happy to have a more nuanced discussion.

I’m a bio female and I have absolutely been sexually aroused by myself all done up and in sexy lingerie for example. I’ve thought about why that is. I don’t fancy myself. I don’t find myself exceptionally attractive. I’m very much average.

I suspect it comes from the fact that all of us have been bombarded our whole lives with images of sexualised woman so that when we sexualise ourselves it’s…well sexy. Also possibly that the thought of my partner being sexually aroused by me is in turn arousing for me.

To me AGP and trans women are just completely separate things. To me it’s akin to the old “gay men can’t work with little boys because they’ll probably sexually assault them” moral panic. Sure some gay men are attracted to little boys but most aren’t so the two aren’t equivocal. But most people here won’t be ready for that sort of conversation and blindly refuse to discuss any of the similarities between the things said about trans people and what has been said previously about gay people.

Grayson Perry's fetish meant that he attended a children's cancer charity fundraiser wearing an enormous dildo poking through his coat.

A children's cancer charity fundraiser. The fact he seems to have gotten away with this with minimal censure is astoundingly awful.

"To me AGP and trans women are just completely separate things. To me it’s akin to the old “gay men can’t work with little boys because they’ll probably sexually assault them” moral panic. Sure some gay men are attracted to little boys but most aren’t so the two aren’t equivocal. But most people here won’t be ready for that sort of conversation and blindly refuse to discuss any of the similarities between the things said about trans people and what has been said previously about gay people"

Of course all transwomen don't have AGP. And not all men with AGP will choose be abusive.

If only trans activists themselves would denounce the males who claim trans identities and absolutely do use the identity as a cover for abuse though ? I'm still waiting for that. There's been enough cases in the public eye by now.

Describing safeguarding vulnerable classes as a "moral panic" is a bit creepy, btw.

Yuk

What absolutely garbage.

Where is your evidence that trans men and NB females are “encourage to” as you put it, “cut off their tits”? Are there posters up in Tesco now or what? Was there an ad on during Strictly this Christmas?

Do you have a basic grasp of anatomy? Can you maybe think of one or two reasons why it might be a much more complicated surgery to remove a penis…you know the thing men urinate and ejaculate out of, rather than performing a breast reduction? Breast being tissue and not an organ with a function it has to perform several times a day everyday in order for your body to survive?

Oh God, NO. Goady, much?

It is goady. But there have been some genuinely amusing comments and we've all learnt a lot about wombats.

So not all bad!

Breasts are not just tissue and are considered a glandular organ by the NHS

Breast being tissue and not an organ with a function it has to perform several times a day everyday in order for your body to survive?

Although breasts are certainly capable of performing a function several times a day that keeps somebody else alive.

What? Absolutely not.

Yes. Hence specific breast cancers.

Do you realise how you sound?

Every time a terrorist commits an act of terrorism under the guise of Islam/Christianity do all the Muslims and Christians have to denounce them?

When a trans person is murdered do the most vocal TERFs come out and denounce it?

Or can the adults in the room understand that a tiny minority of crazy people do not represent the entire group they claim to be a part of?

I assume this comment 👆 is responding to this:
Not sexually aroused but I do feel sexy. Is that vastly different to what a trans woman feels like when they get dressed up and look (at least in their eyes) like a woman?

or this:
Or is this a totally unoriginal thought that’s already been troped out by TRAs and actually there is a huge difference??

OP it's not that people don't want to discuss this calmly. The issue is that you didn't check the definition of AGP before you posted. It's not the same as getting dressed up and thinking you look attractive.