"A woman who is trans"

[AllThisFuss]

I've been noticing this terminology creeping in. Just thought I might highlight it, so we can keep up to date with their ever-changing attempts to control language and muddy the waters. Have you seen any in the wild?

IndiaWilloughby
‪@indiawilloughby.bsky.social‬
Not a mention of the woman who’s trans, who did nothing wrong. This ruling is in direct conflict with the Gender Recognition Act. How is this happening? It is wrong on every level, and will be used to push trans people even further out of society and into danger

You sound like you're handling it really well, perfect. It's interesting the autism/ADHD thing seems to have a very strong correlation in younger females reporting gender dysphoria whereas I don't notice it so much amongst the males I know (nor myself). Hopefully that means it is a different thing and will pass, so I don't know how much my experience will relate to hers at all. You might be better talking to trans men in that regard. For me at least the feelings about my body have been quite clear since childhood, and really haven't changed in my perception. I'm now well past 25 and eventually reached a point of accepting those feelings weren't going to change, which is what led me to transition.

Correct me if i am am wrong but i was under the impression that Tim’s talking about not being real women would not be safe.

i said in my ln my last post that i was reticent about it but thought it was an interesting exchange.

I don't want to fight other women about this or argue, we all have different perspectives that we should permit being expressed. I am as a matter of fact hard line GC.

But i don't mind opening the door a tiny bit just to hear.

i would rather Poke my out with a fork than sign up to Reddit and other such sites, this is my only place on social media, not least because it is a place of learning hearing and useful disagreement.

i will stand down now.

Yes. This is after all a feminist board centring female people.

For people on twitter, this is an interesting exchange about helping people be grounded in reality. It is an answer to something Kirsty Allsopp posted.

https://x.com/psychgirl211/status/2013599058728829202?s=46

as a DClinPsych with over thirty years' clinical experience I can categorically tell you this.

It is never 'kind' or 'polite' to collude with someone's cognitive distortions and/or their psychotic beliefs.

True kindness lies in what we psychologists call 'reality-testing', whereby we challenge people's maladaptive thinking patterns.

The goal of this is for the people we treat to become grounded in reality, so that their behaviour becomes more adaptive and, eventually, their mental health improves.

A man thinking he is a woman (or vice-versa), is about as maladaptive as it gets.

Whether we like it or not, we are all rooted in the physical reality of our bodies:

I for example am Black woman, and you are White woman.

We were both born within this genetic 'envelope', if you will.

And each of us lives, and we will die within, the genetic envelope of our race.

(And, I'm sure the idea of 'Blacking up' would horrify you).

This is exactly the same with sex.

It's not a matter of having 'sympathy' for 'trans' people.

We do them no favours by lying to them and colluding with their dysfunctional thinking, because inevitably they will run out of cognitive distortions.

The lies will wear thin and biological reality will 100% catch up with them.

This is inescapable.

The truly 'sympathetic' thing to therefore, is to be honest to 'trans people'.

They have not changed sex.

They cannot change sex.

They will die exactly the same sex as they were born.

The truth is kindness.

Not your lies.

And men not being safe is women’s problem because? This is the one place I know on social media where men’s voices are not centred. Like a lot of other women here, I’ve had years of abuse from these men. In my case physically, so forgive me if I don’t want to spend my precious time reading about men not feeling like me so they should access women’s spaces.

And here we have yet another example of men taking over women’s spaces. Off you pop now @ThatOpalTurtleand @TroubledWatersTW. You don’t belong here.

We do have some regular male posters on MN FWR who contribute positively. The point is though as Arabella mentioned, the board is about centring female people.

I’m sorry you feel I’ve taken over the space. Talking to people here helped me to reflect on my views in a way I never would’ve if I stuck to trans spaces on Reddit

I wonder if the initial seed of early onset gender dysphoria is actually something to do with how we perceive our parents and which one we feel more similar to/distant from, projected at the subconscious level into an identification with or rejection of their sex.

GC analysis tends to assume it's a reaction to generalised gender roles/stereotypes that is somehow the underlying driver but maybe it's the other way round, maybe the generalised gender /sex is standing within the subconscious to represent a very specific individual (who may be fictional or imaginary) that a person either really wants to be/be like or really does not want to be/be like, with the conscious mind unaware of the strength of feeling and maybe never even consciously thinking of that person.

While you are reflecting and while I have your attention , please could you answer my question about how I can politely let men who identify as women know that I know that they are men and I do not want them to be in the same toilet as me. I’m quite shy and polite in real life and I don’t like upsetting people. If I don’t say anything though it seems like they think they pass. None of them do but I don’t know how to let them know this.

I’m afraid your comments just reinforce (as of course they must) that you are male, and all that entails as regards your socialisation as a male.

Even if you were the kindest, gentlest man on earth your presence, as a man in a woman’s space, would be completely unacceptable. One male in a group of women changes everything.

So putting aside the potential predator aspect, think of the WI, Girl Guiding, all girls schools, lesbian groups. They exist to allow females to be together away from men - all men. I’ve been to single sex schools and mixed sex. It’s astounding to see the misplaced confidence of a male merely because he’s surrounded mainly by females.

It’s not for men to work out some sort of hierarchy of those men who could/should enter women’s spaces. There’s literally nothing a man could do, nothing, that would make his presence acceptable.

The sheer arrogance of centring yourself and your needs in opposition to others needs - and rights - that have been hard won and enjoyed in peace is, frankly, staggering.

I find it very difficult to believe that only through this thread have you realised that you’ve been violating women’s dignity and privacy. You’ve mentioned the court cases, so you know how those nurses felt, how Sandie Peggy felt, and no doubt others. Why wouldn’t women feel that way? When the Equality Act came into force there wasn’t a caveat that that nice young man down the road, the softly spoken one who does his nan’s shopping, he can use women’s spaces.

Women’s spaces aren’t about men - they exist purely to exclude you.

I unfortunately don’t have a good for you. I think the safest thing would be to tell a member of staff and let them deal with it. If

Ah, for my DD there was no sign of childhood GD, it was pubertal. On another thread a few of us with AUDHD have explored the fact that most of us had eating disorders/body dysmorphia and that this seems to have evolved into gender confusion in our daughters/nieces. I do think the male/TW experience is distinct from the female presentation of trans identifying, and in fact there are possibly more varied and complex contexts for the male drive to transition - and in many cases it is less benign.

In my past I have been totally happy to sit with a TW and share the hairdryer in my local David Lloyd, but at the time I assumed the [beautiful and feminine] trans woman I was sitting with with was fully surgically transitioned after years/decades of therapy and thus deserved empathy and compassion. I still hold that perspective.

The issue for me is that the lines have been blurred and we no longer know which of the TWs in our spaces are ‘those’ ones, or which are the AGPs/predatory men abusing the system. And then, of course, there is the way it has been presented in schools !!

This is FWR and therefore a women's space. I fully empathise with the resentment while seeing @ThatOpalTurtle and @TroubledWatersTW having a conversation in our space. However, I don't have a problem with them using this thread to explore their relationship with single sex spaces, particularly as they appear to have arrived at the sensible and sensitive conclusion that they should stay out of them. As they say, they couldn't have this conversation on Reddit. We are providing a service.

I’m afraid telling a member of staff isn’t the solution. Miranda Newsom recently told the receptionists at her gym in Southwark that a man was in the female changing room.

They told Miranda that they let men in depending on how well they - the gym staff - thought the man passed as a woman. Miranda had previously quietly and gently told the man that he shouldn’t be in the female changing room. Cue him videoing her in the changing room, saying she had been violent (she hadn’t) that he was scared and was going to call the police, which he did.

Miranda is now banned for a year from all Southwark leisure centres for calling the man in question a man.

So you see that’s why men mistakenly think they pass - Miranda’s are few and far between. Also why women are stymied when a man is in the wrong by being in her space, as she knows she’ll be seen as in the wrong by merely pointing it out.

They’re all ‘those ones’ because they’re all men.

Any man entering a women only space is violating that space merely by his presence. He’s choosing to break the law.

Sigh. I know.

It was 15 years ago and at the time we didn’t really know this, did we?

I don’t need a lecture, or to be told off. Thanks

There are so many questions that I would like to ask but could certainly not ask in ‘real’ life…such as,
How do you see your future?
Do you see yourself with a partner of the same sex or the opposite sex?
Do you want children of your own?
…I’ve so many more!

I worked exclusively with women and girls about sexual and domestic violence since 1992 and lost my last job in part, over the fight against inclusion of males for the record.

So i have some understanding of the impact of VAWG, and i think ROGD in females is a new social contagion that has its roots sexual abuse, in young women’s fear of men and fear of the consequences of being lesbians.

but this horrible problem does not have a wider impact on society.

i think on that we all can agree.

what suffers under a cloud of confusion is why men try (and fail) to opt out of being men.

i have read quite widely on the subject, from the inventor of the concept of AGP, Blanchard and, research flowing from that plus Naz Hakeem.

there is a lack of coherence as to who falls in to what category, AGP transvestite, heterosexuals, homosexuals etc.

And now all research has been stopped because we are told, it is a natural state of being, just like being gay.

what we know this is incorrect, because once gay people now come out their lives mostly become settled.

what we know about TIM where they pursue the concept of being a real woman they carry on being unsettled anxious and suffer mental health problems.

and some even regret surgery.

i strongly suspect that Tim’s have likely sexual /domestic violence in their own histories as well as internal homophobia, and in the meld mother issues be that death, absence or victims of violence.

but we cannot know at the moment due to the mantra of trans women are real women.

and the male led world we have prefers to legislate for rights instead of proper care and support.

and then in amongst that we get sexual predators and violent males with identity issues or fake as the case may be

I knew 15 years ago that a man shouldn’t be in a woman’s space. Nothing has changed.

Attacking the people who are on the same side as you is really counterproductive.

On that note I am out of here. MN really is becoming a hostile and toxic space if you can’t have discussions with people you essentially agree with without being aggressive. I shan’t be returning to FWR after this exchange.

Clearly my tone wasn’t kind enough. I must be more womanly. Funny how it’s always this board that women are scolded on.

I completely agree.
Please don’t leave. The ‘quiet’ voices, the kinder ‘voices’ matter.

Well done (not)

@CautiousLurker2 Add to please dont leave maybe just this thread?

You want to watch the TIMs chat because it's interesting to you, you are enjoying eavesdropping on something you wouldn't normally get to witness. It's a spectator sport.
Taztoy has things she wants to say to the TIMs and imo they really need to hear her. Because she's telling them things they wouldn't normally get to hear.
They can (and probably should) take their private discussion off the public board and utilise this board to listen to the women they were seeking to talk to when they joined the discussion.
Which obviously would mean we'd miss the ending, but its not Eastenders.