GLP are suing Virgin Active

[ByGreatGreenWriter]

https://goodlawproject.org/were-suing-virgin-active-over-their-transphobic-rules/

“So we’re taking legal action. We are representing two claimants who are members of Virgin Active gyms and who have been subject to discrimination solely because they are trans.

According to Virgin’s new policy, both of them can no longer use facilities like the pool and sauna because they can only be reached by going through either the men’s or women’s changing rooms.“

If true that sounds like discrimination?

Did the objecting user fail to miss that the individuals who actually need the extra provision also needs to join the end of the que which is made longer if the objecting user can "lower" her/his expected standards to use the provided space?

If I was VA I would have had the dryer etc installed before the letter had been posted.

And looked at reconfigering the door openings to consolidate each accessable unit into the main changing rooms to remove the risk of tracking water into the main walkway.

As long as organisations continued to be sued despite following the law their motivations for following the law are somewhat lessened. What I suspect are really needed right now are equally vociferous GC lawyers suing companies that still choose to ignore the law. The Equality Act is only effective if people are willing to use for breaches, and currently because people aren't doing that when trans people are treated as the opposite sex, there's little motivation for anyone to actually follow it.

Surely a non binary trans masc would have had issues well before Virgin Active changed to single sex. Even if they had some weird policy on gender the CR’s were labelled men and women so nothing specific for the they/thems.

Agree.

It falls in line with the fantasy that they ‘pass’ and are so irresistible to heterosexual men they will be attacked.
Where the reality will be someone might laugh.

If you make exceptions for any men its no longer single sex but mixed sex and all men must be allowed in, as such not only is there no requirement to make exceptions but they are specifically barred from doing so

I completely agree and will never understand this argument.

Someone is so worried about being attacked by men for simply dressing like a woman, yet can’t seem to grasp the need for single sex spaces.

If you’re concerned about being attacked whilst being dressed as a woman, imagine being an actual woman.

They are choosing to dress as a woman, they are choosing to go into a men only space - whilst we are not choosing to have men come into our space, it is being forced upon us with no regard to our safety.

If men’s spaces are so dangerous then that supports our argument that we do not want men in our female only spaces.

That had never occurred to me, somehow.

I had always understood the main risk-based claim to be that TW risk assault in the men’s toilets because of transphobia. I think that a fair, if overblown, concern.

Not that TW risk assault becuase they are confused for women. That’s highly unlikely.

It makes the validation thing even more tawdry. The risk of rape as an desirable affirmation.

It is not even "transphobia" it is a repackaging homophobia.
any male dressed as a woman is also sexually attracted to men and that these males will make sexual advances and be attacked or that a men is sexually attracted so realised he was gay and attacks.

Otherwise the risk involved ( if the attack is random or because the victim is "Odd" as such highlights male violence etc) is transferred to the womans space with the subgroup of men.

Are you genuinely suggesting trans women want to be raped for ‘validation’? I’ve read some vile things but this one really tops it.

I don’t think anyone wants someone to be raped, I think it’s part of their fantasy that they are vulnerable to men like actual women are because they wear nail varnish.
Women however won’t be in danger if they come into their spaces as they are all grand lads and wouldn’t lay a finger on a woman (even if there is plenty of evidence that isn’t true).

It's the difference between fantasy and reality. Rape is unconsenting. Fantasy is just fantasy. Paris Lees, for instance, claiming that being treated like a piece of meat was hot

No. No more than women want to be raped (ie not at all). But the state that women are in of having to fear that may be an important part of the validation of womanhood.

As I said, it hadn’t previously occurred to me, but it would explain why the claim about TW being in danger in men’s toilets seems so out of proportion to the actual risk.

I have countless times seen TW say things that imply that the danger is self-evident (“can you imagine what would happen”) and almost a certainty.

Which I always took to be a reference to being hit by thugs. Which, yes, is a risk, but not in most men’s loos most of the time.

Whereas as a reference to the risk of being leered at sexually, harassed or sexually assaulted becuase mistaken for a women it makes more sense because of the validation angle.

That’s one persons experience. It’s quite a leap to suggest TW fantasise about raped because it would make them a woman

You prompted me to go back to my reading though.

I am curious whether you also see wanting to be sexually harassed and objectified as a “vile” thing to be accused of?

Because that one does seem very well-attested from prominent and feted TW authors.

This feels a bit like “listen to trans voices… no, not those ones!”

As you point out, we can only go on what individuals say.

Andrea Long Chu the male trans identifying author of a book called 'Females' says that getting fucked makes you female because fucked is what a female is.

Or there's Grace Lavery, the male trans identifying academic and author

"There is something about being treated like a piece of shit by men that feels like affirmation itself ... a cry of delight from the deepest cavern of my breast. To be the victim of honest undisguised sexism possesses an exhilarating vitality".

Or Julia Serrano, trans identified male author of Whipping Girl

"While I never really believed the cliche about women being good for only one thing, I found that sentiment kept creeping into my fantasies.

I would imagine being sold into sex slavery and having strange men take advantage of me".

Not really much of a leap, to be honest.

I think you can listen to trans voices without generalising about the whole community based on a vocal minority of perverts. There are bad people in every group and I would find it equally wrong to generalise based on that actions of the few.

To be clear, fantasizing about something is very different from wanting that thing to happen.

But I really don’t think it’s a huge leap to suggest that thing, based on the candid writings of more than a few prominent TWs describing their experiences. Long Chu, Paris Lees, Torrey Peters, etc.

Now, that may not represent the median TW. And arguably there is no harm in any type of private fantasy.

But the shock at the suggestion that it could be a prominent motivator seems misplaced. Unless we think TWs own self-reports need to be sanitized or disbelieved when they become relevant to wider discussion.

Grace Lavery is an associate professor of English critical theory and gender and women's studies at UC Berkeley,

Andrea Long Chu is a writer and critic and has written for numerous publications including the New York Times.

Julia Serrano has a PhD in biochemistry and molecular bio physics and gives talks at numerous universities.

What sort of criteria do you think is necessary for representation of the trans community?

I don't care if they don't feel comfortable in men's spaces.
They are men, so if it's a binary option, that's where they belong.

IANAL, but I thought the inclusion of 'gender reassignment' in the Equality Act only gave you protection from being treated differently to a non-gender-reassigned person of the same sex.

I can't see how any law can or should protect everyone from ever being a bit sad and uncomfortable.

The judge in the Darlington nurses tribunal has just said that the protected characteristic of gender reassignment to guard against discrimination, does not give men the right to access spaces belonging to women.

The fact that this even needs to be said is ludicrous.

But here we are.

I don't think you've listened to enough trans voices.

It falls in line with the fantasy that they ‘pass’

Why have mostvsocial structures evolve into a system of single sex spaces?

What is a worst case risk of a lone woman undressing in a private or semi-private space with an unknown man?

Why are TRA fighting to force women to share with men and are also fighting to remove some men from mens spaces?

Exactly! I have. That's why I'm a terf.

I agree with you. But the issue was “could this be a significant part of the mix”. I think the examples are prominent and common enough that they can’t be easily dismissed as irrelevant.

If these few examples are perverts (your term), it’s surely really bad luck that the first transwoman Pulitzer Prize winner, the editor of one of the main trans journals, the first prominent trans presenter on BBC all turn out to be perverts. At the very least it indicates an unwillingness to challenge attitudes that might usually be seen as delegitimizing in other circles.