Is anyone on here trans-inclusive?

[plinkyplonk123]

Hi everyone, this is just a quick post to ask if anybody else on here is trans inclusive? I know I’m definitely in the minority here but I just wanted to see.

I think they were referring to America.

ETA: you edited as I was replying! The US Supreme Court has some rather 'interesting' judges!

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the sports challenge going through the US Supreme Court yesterday when you referred to 'amateurs'. One of the judges on the panel cannot define a woman. It's embarrassing.

I think you will find that most people here would support that despite what nonsense you might have read elsewhere.
Its demanding we suspend suspend reality and pander to men with sick kinks we object to

It’s not which is why I normally avoid it like the plague 👍

Well, sexist behaviour is not something I personally respect, but you do you I guess.

No. If someone is prepared to lie about what sex they are, and expect me to do the same, I am unlikely to trust them enough to want to work or socialise with them.

Yes, society as a whole is still pretty sexist in many ways. It is not that surprising that so many people consciously or subconsciously buy into the idea that there are "right" and "wrong" ways to be a man or woman, and if you have the "wrong" thoughts or behaviours for your sex you must somehow actually be the opposite sex.

Yes, by your definition and mine.

Yours, because I do not “demonise the trans community as a whole”.

Mine, because I’m very happy to include transwomen in men’s spaces. Because, why wouldn’t I?

And my conception of feminism includes transmen, because, again, why wouldn’t it?

Sorry I edited and then can’t edit it now to say I edited for clarity coz I typed too fast and missed the “US” coming out as “us” in my reply and realised it wasn’t clear.

off to tell all and sundry today that the Supreme Court judges are amateurs 😄

Well they're all out this morning with the "my lovely trans friend"

funnily enough we don't base the laws of the land on people's lovely friends. My DH is lovely and wouldn't hurt anyone. Can he go in women's spaces too? After all me being vouching he's lovely should be enough right?

also have we got an answer to how do we tell the "lovely trans friends" from the non lovely trans women who abuse & attack women?

I think by “trans- inclusive” OP and pp mean “gender identity ideology believer or observer”.

It’s not enough for men to say that men who identify as women are welcome in their spaces. Women need to, whether they want to or not.

The problem is that in certain circumstances we none of us have time to decide if the person standing in front of us is a nice bloke who just likes to wear a dress or if he is violent or a sexual predator. The same way that I don't know that about any man who I have just met.
FWIW, I know some lovely men, including some I would trust with my life. Unfortunately I have also met men who are exactly the opposite. In my work I dealt with men who had murdered, raped, sexually abused children, I've met men who think they are women who were clearly mentally unwell and a couple who genuinely frightened me. I'm not not generally easily scared, but a 6ft tall bloke in make up and female clothing shouting in my face from about 2 inches away did frighten me. Particularly as he had already through items around the interview room and I was trying to make my escape. He was a typical angry man with issues.
So, for reasons of safety he should not be in female spaces.

I agree with this, but ONLY if it is not detrimental to any other group of people, especially women and girls.

I do not care what people do
But i will; NOT pretend a man is ever a woman

Same. My feminism is the hill I'll die on and I'm not blind to some of the difficulties in being both a feminist and trans-inclusive. But nothing worth having is ever easy and I'll also die on the hill that a person's genitals have nothing to do with their human value.

Crosses my feminism is inclusive of men off the bingo card

It’s not about them having less value. Any human being is of equal importance to the world. I’m glad you see that there are issues, though.

It’s not about them having less value. Any human being is of equal importance to the world. I’m glad you see that there are issues, though.

I don’t demonise the trans community. I know 2 trans people and I’m perfectly polite to them.

However I don’t believe you can change sex, and I strongly think biological men should not be in women’s single sex spaces.

Of course not. It's easy to state the obvious like this instead of addressing the issue at hand. Which is that, unless you can present a similarly lengthy set of serious female sexual offenders of recent years (spoiler: you won't find anything close to the same number...), this list is clear evidence of increased risk. Which suggests that you're saying that females must accept this significantly increased risk - and collate consequent evidence of serious harm - before being granted single-sex spaces. Surely, this can't be what you mean.

Looking at it from the other side, and retaining your stated focus on data, can you share the numbers of transwomen who have suffered similarly serious assaults to those listed above, but in male spaces, by males? Taking a somewhat reductive approach, this list would need to be considerably longer than this list of predominantly female victims above (if you google each case) to support your argument. If not, then your demands for data seem rather selective.

None of this is to say I'm unsympathetic to the deeply dysphoric minority (as well as de-transitioners and "questioning" children swept up in the current climate). But the solution to mitigating the distress of a group of males should not be to increased the risks faced by females. This is no kind of feminism.

I see myself as inclusive insofar as I, in line with the SC judgement and law, support transmen in female spaces (except in the vanishingly small minority of cases in which they pass and their presence may therefore cause distress to women), and feel deeply sympathetic to the demographics in the paragraph above and their complex needs. I would like to be able to advocate more proactively for these groups.

But as long as "trans rights" is indiscriminately inclusive of fetishistic males and aggressively "exclusive" of females desperate to retain their single-sex spaces, I can't do this. To frame this conflict of rights as straightforwardly ethical "inclusion" is, frankly, dishonest and unprincipled, and prevents people like me from speaking up for trans people. The current threat to women's sex-based rights presented by vocal TRAs means we can't afford to muddy the waters - and also, female voices calling for balance and nuance consistently receive verbal abuse and threats.

(And it's also worth saying that significant numbers of males, including trans-identifying males, very openly threatening females who publicly advocate for excluding males from their spaces, rather predictably, does little to convince us of your professed absence of risk...)

We aim to please 😂

Yes, but we’re in the minority and the vituperative majority here is pretty aggressive.

so many people misinformed here, like saying ‘I don’t believe you can change your sex’ when to my knowledge (and I work in this field) that’s not what any trans person believes either.

or being against treatment as a child, when most trans adults have known their identity since being infants, and adult transition makes it so much harder to live as their true identity and brings psychological torment that is almost impossible to recover from.

i just hope that the people who pour so much energy into the anti-trans rhetoric plough the same into violence against women and girls- as ever, it’s men that are the issue, not trans people.

it’s men that are the issue, not trans people.

TW are men

But nothing worth having is ever easy

Does that include our hard won single sex spaces that our foremother feminists fought so hard fo?

a person's genitals have nothing to do with their human value.

That's as may be, but as a rape survivor I don't want to see a male person's genitals in a women and girls change room where I am. In case you aren't aware those male genitals can harm women, and have been used in war crime incidents over the decades. There is a reason the female sex have female only single sex spaces, and keeping those spaces is a hill I will die on. I will never spit on our elder feminists' graves. Ever.