Is anyone on here trans-inclusive?

[plinkyplonk123]

Hi everyone, this is just a quick post to ask if anybody else on here is trans inclusive? I know I’m definitely in the minority here but I just wanted to see.

that inability to waver assertions damages the mental health of those with different-presenting gender identity

That's the "tell me I'm a woman or I'll die by suicide" line of manipulation.

We don't fall for it.

the mental health of those with different-presenting gender identity is not something that takes precedence over the rights of women or straightforward biological fact. Just like we don't tell anorexic people that they're fat, even if it's hurtful to hear the truth. Sometimes the adults in the room need to step up and be adults.

Being female is not an identity. It is a physical and biological reality with certain types of consquence. Nobody is suggesting that just because you are female you must feel or act in a certain way; like certain kinds of clothes or objects,must have children or be heterosexual etc

As is your right. This is not meant as an attack, part of the complexity for me is I know someone who would desperately like her children to be in contact with her again, and I know that her gender-critical posts on FB are one of the reasons they aren't. She feels so strongly & passionately about it & I know it is partly fuelled by her pain from life; sometimes our discussions were fruitful & sometimes they descended into vitriol. I partly want to understand the whole mindset & arguing with lots of different people on here is, quite possibly, the worst way to go about it. But I've learned things. Not everyone is like that damaged person, there are lots of sensible, well-thought-out viewpoints on here & while I don't agree with them, I also appreciate the opportunity to somehow have civil discourse.

But trans acceptance is ultimately sexism acceptance.

I genuinely find it sexist and demeaning, and therefore offensive and distressing, , to be expected to agree even just politely with someone's self image as "really" the opposite sex to their body (or opposite gender to that expected of their body if you prefer) because of how their mind works.

Such a sexist definition of men and women is not one I accept for myself.

I do not believe my self knowledge and self understanding are of less value than those of trans people, and I do not think it is reasonable to expect me to pay lip service to a belief system I find personally demeaning.

I would be surprised and alarmed if any regular poster thought they had the ability to deny people 'their personal view of themselves'. That sounds rather like mind control.

What people don't have is a right to ignore reality.

For me kindness would be not being told I was wierd or odd because I liked things that boys like

you know - being taken as I am - a girl who likes things that boys also like because I don’t think that things like football ( insert whatever) are of more interest innately to one sex over the other

in other word kindness for me is saying “let’s get rid of gender concepts and constraints “

I think some people see "woman" as an identity, just like some people see their being a lawyer or a ballet dancer as an identity. If you read trans reddit uk you'll see a lot of men putting a lot of effort into womaning better. (I can post links if you like, but two recent threads about how to unlearn the male "head tilt" is one, and another about the relief of being able to ditch "toxic masculinity" is another.) Clearly to them, "woman" is an identity, and one they aspire to. I suppose the woman identity is really the sexist stereotype by another name.

I think we would agree though that adopting "woman" as your identity is an entirely distinct matter from being actually being female or using single sex facilities designated for women.

One of my closest friends thinks little of her femaleness, she sees her body as an inconvenience, rarely thinks about it & doesn't let herself be defined by it. It's taken a long time & a good deal of conversation for her to understand how I view myself & that's because she doesn't feel like me. Just like you don't. I appreciate that she tried, and understand your position; I'm grateful to have the privilege to encounter both safely.

But by saying I am female, you are denying my personal view of myself. That's how I feel, you feel differently, let's move on.

I know that her gender-critical posts on FB are one of the reasons they aren't.

Well presumably she's figured that much out already? I'm not sure what you could usefully add. She feels what she feels and it's her decision whether to pretend to feel differently fo the sake of a relationship with her child.

I am trans inclusive in that both of my sons claim/ed to be trans but I don’t believe in transgenderism. I love them without question and wet sport them and they live in a property we own for very little contribution, they just cover bills. We have welcomed their trans friends and just used bashes and not pronouns. I would step in if I saw ANYBODY being victimised and that includes trans people.

but I don’t believe in the trans ideology. My adult sons know that and we just don’t discuss it anymore than I discuss politics with my (idiot) reform supporting dad or brother. They all know my stance but we each respect the others opinions.

your view is that you are female say and you can hold that view however right or wrong it can be

so we can let you have your view but we don’t have to respect it or treat it as fact or even acknowledge it as relevant

the protection of female identity

I don't know what that is. My concern is with having a clear definition of sex, because without that women don't have the rights that they need to participate in society or the necessary language to ensure that they get correct medical care.

You said you are female, not me.

But by saying I am female, you are denying my personal view of myself.

I'm interested that you think your personal view of yourself depends on other people.

You seem to be confusing their assessment of objective reality - this is a man, this is a child, this is somebody who is qualified as a doctor, this is my line manager at work - with their judgement of your personality.

i just hope that the people who pour so much energy into the anti-trans rhetoric plough the same into violence against women and girls- as ever, it’s men that are the issue, not trans people.

indeed many of us have spent the last 50 years fighting for women's rights, marching about women's issues, working in women's shelters etc etc.
Just for the next generation of women to chuck it all away.

Patroising much?

Yet you can guarantee that because she is female she will experience menstruation, will have to think about the possibility of pregnancy and/or pregnancy prevention; will have been subject to comments from men (and other women too) about her female body parts.

If she plays sport she will come to recognise that male bodies are often stronger, more muscular, bigger etc If she has sexual feelings they will inevitably be focused in her body and on the bodies of others.....whether they be male or female bodies and parts...and so on.

Even if she tries to dis -identify from herself as a female...that dis -identification will arise in opposition to what she perceives her female body represents etc.

You cannot escape or deny your bodily or biological reality. Illnesses manifest differently in male and female bodies, and medications work differently.

This is a shocking example of how language has become forceably changed to the detriment of protecting women and girls- female people.

https://x.com/knownheretic/status/2011805294762795393?s=46

Yep, I am.

I partly want to understand the whole mindset & arguing with lots of different people on here is, quite possibly, the worst way to go about it. But I've learned things. Not everyone is like that damaged person, there are lots of sensible, well-thought-out viewpoints on here & while I don't agree with them, I also appreciate the opportunity to somehow have civil discourse.

Good to read. (I've only read the first few posts on this thread, and the last few).

Always happy to discuss in good faith.

I'm a member of the communist party. So now what?

How is me asking people to not repeatedly tell me I'm female, me saying that we can't talk about sex?
@ForProudPinkPombear If we are discussing who is welcome in which sex-segregated spaces, their sex is relevant to the discussion. Transmen and non-binary-identifying women are welcome in women's spaces because of their female status.

Are you saying biology is more important than psychology?
Absolutely, whenever anything relating to sex and sex-based rights is concerned. And particularly when it relates to physical health.

Can I also say, that you don't get to decide the status quo, you don't get to gatekeep whether I'm part of a discussion that involves me at every level because you disagree with how I view myself.
I'm not gatekeeping. I'm pointing out it's impossible to discuss sex and gender without referring to sex. And if you are uncomfortable with accepting sex as a valid concept, how is this topic going to be something that you engage in? I mean, we have to talk in terms like female and women and so on, and you are objecting to that.

And to say that it's rude that I have extremely damaging dysphoria?!? That's a particularly manipulative low blow. Have a word with yourself.
Disingenuous and misrepresenting me. I said the very idea that to call someone 'female' can be diminishing is misogynistic and offensive to me. Because I don't believe there is anything 'lesser' about being female.

It's understandable to say you feel it is not an accurate way to describe how you see yourself, but it's rude and tone deaf to tell a bunch of feminists that to be seen as female is to be diminished.

"The teeny tiny few who are using their female outward appearance to rape or harm women is so small it's not my top agenda for things to get riled up about"

Wow - really ? How many rapes or cases of harm are OK??
Answer- none

You cannot feel male because if you are biologically female you have no experience to know what that feels like. You can feel at odds with your physical self. You can feel as if you should behave on the male end of the gender spectrum.

But if you want me to agree that you feel male, I cannot see how you have even the tiniest scrap of possibly of knowing how that feels to someone who is male, because we can't teleport into others minds.

I do think you have a tough life, though, I hope you get through reasonably OK.

Interesting that you mention flawed prison systems.

Up until last year, the Scottish Prison Service allowed males, including violent male sex offenders, to be placed in the female prison estate under self id. Not a glitch, not a mistake but actual policy driven by the lobbying group Scottish Trans whose then CEO said -

'We strategized – we strategized – that by working intensively with the Scottish Prison Service to support them to include trans women as women on a self-declaration basis within very challenging circumstances, we would be able to ensure that all other public services should be able to do likewise’.

Even now, after the general public's horror forced a change to the policy, violent male offenders are still placed in the female prison estate, under self id.

Would you agree that this flawed prison system needs to change or are vulnerable women in prison to be sacrificed at the altar of 'be kind because TWAW'?