Is anyone on here trans-inclusive?

[plinkyplonk123]

Hi everyone, this is just a quick post to ask if anybody else on here is trans inclusive? I know I’m definitely in the minority here but I just wanted to see.

I'll return to my world of empathy, curiosity, flexibility, self-reflection & 'feelings', & you get back to whatever it is you do that clearly isn't that.

That's a good summary. Some of us exist in the world of fact, logic, biology, history, law, and right-and-wrong.

Biology and life on earth is indeed binary when it comes to sex. Sex is one of the fundamental categories of life on earth.

My DC is non-binary. I also vehemently disagree w their political views but they are my DC so we just don’t talk about it.
i don’t really care if a man wants to think he’s a woman, but keep penises out of women’s spaces - that’s the hill I’ll die on.

I fully agree with you about single sex classes by the way.

My identity is not non-binary, it's a term that describes how I feel about my biological & societal identity better than female. I don't need you to agree with me, I actually have more of a problem with the condescension I'm encountering & the assumptions around how I view myself and others. I'm baffled as to why I keep getting these kind of replies & not one person can acknowledge that it is unkind to say something to somebody that hurts them, as if it would betray their truth to say nothing. I am not arguing with anyone because I don't think you are wrong in your views, I'm basically just trying to understand how you can be so oblivious to the collateral damage of your obsessions.

At least we agree on something.

thats not how safeguarding works. You can't interview every trans woman to see if they have nefarious intentions before allowing them access to womens changing rooms.

Again, I'm struck by how much you have in common with Trump.

Although he does have more power to enforce his personal reality on others.

There are people here who have backgrounds in counselling and mental health and who know all about feelings and empathy. We're also mostly women, many mothers.......

The difference is, perhaps, that they also recognise the need to stand outside of those aspects of self as well...because they are not always reliable, and getting too bogged down in naval gazing is not conducive to good mental health or emotional and psychological resilience.

Haha lol is that all you have? Run out of ad hominem attacks? At least I respect that you aren't recycling your points.

Can’t you understand that every single time you suggest that gender is real and innate that you hurt my feelings ?

But you don’t give a fuck about that ? You are happy to be very unkind - yet expect I shouldn’t be the same back?

But do you understand that being female is not an identity; it is just a biological fact. Identity rests more in personal interests, experience, preferences, background and so on

The difference between you and most other posters in this thread is not that they all have a feminine or masculine identity, but that they don't feel the need to define their identity in terms of gender at all.

I'm baffled as to why I keep getting these kind of replies & not one person can acknowledge that it is unkind to say something to somebody that hurts them

It's the feminism board. We talk about feminism. As I said before, none of it is personal because we haven't the faintest idea who you are.

I'm basically just trying to understand how you can be so oblivious to the collateral damage of your obsessions.

Again it's the feminism board. Talking about women's rights is rather central to what we discuss - I don't know why this surprises you.

There are also boards where people discuss gardening and cats.

What exactly are you implying? I'm am encountering so many fantastical ways of insulting someone based on not viewing the world in the same way. I would direct some back but I don't feel any need to defend myself against the outcomes of rigid thinking.

Ad hominem? Why would you assume this is an attack?

I am just noting your similar philosophies.

Can you concede that your views on gender identity are insulting to some?

But you don't talk about feminism, you talk about denying people their right to their personal view of themselves. Absolutely blinded by anger & setting progress back. Keep on, nothing I do or say is going to change your worldview because you refuse to allow any consideration of an alternative viewpoint.

You think everyone has to tip toe around anyone who claims a trans identity and just"be kind", rather than speak the truth and trust their own instincts?

Women here care about what happens to female people ( as an identifiable group of human beings) because they are female. We understand how trans ideology and the concept of trans identities over-ride female dignity and integrity and undermine established rights and protections; and we understand what male privilege and male demands look like in reality.

And because many are mothers we don't see it as 'Kimd' to encourage a child to believe themselves to be something they are not - leading them into a lifetime of pain and disappointment such as you are feeling - when the world does not confirm or validate those feelings at every turn. We believe a child can be whoever they are, but sex is real and you cannot change or deny your sex without negative effect.

Feminism relies on knowing what a woman is

people keep trying to say it’s something else

people keep insulting us by saying men can become women

so yes it is important to talk about it

“not one person can acknowledge that it is unkind to say something to somebody that hurts them, as if it would betray their truth to say nothing”

This is an interesting example of the one directional kindness that I have seen posters try to point out. This statement is one-directional kindness. I believe it comes from the focus that there has been on telling a group of people that kind people affirm an identity although, Maybe I am wrong.

It is not kindness for anyone to have to act as if someone else’s personally described reality that doesn’t reflect material reality. That is also not respectful to expect others to do it. Quite the opposite.

I respect your right to have a view, any view at all, you choose of yourself. We all have this right to believe whatever we want. But when these beliefs have consequences for others, sometimes we will be rightly told NO, you're wrong. Or NO, you can't use that changing room or play on that team.

It's unkind to actively demand others to lie or collude in a fantasy. People can't change their sex. I won't pretend otherwise.

As with Catholics believing that the Communion wine and wafers are literally Christ's body, I also respect my, and others, right to think this is very silly and anti-science nonsense. It's flat earth, 'Hello! I'm Henry VIII incarnate' level of absurdity. The wine and wafers are still just common foodstuffs. And a man remains just a man, he's not an ancient King brought back to life.

We're mammals. Humans - like whales, elephants, cats and dogs - cannot change our sex. And gender is just having a personality including likes and dislikes. Nothing more than that.

you talk about denying people their right to their personal view of themselves.

I think it's more that we won't allow ourselves to be forced to play along with other people's personal view of themselves. If you want to identify as a cat, a whale, or a slice of toast, that's your right. But I'm never going to behave towards you as I would towards any of those things.

Of course I can! It's inevitable, absolutely not something I would want, and I examine my views & the landscape as often as possible in case I'm not being true to myself & can possibly moderate my views to be more accomodating. But all I can do is be true to myself. And I know how I view myself. Can you concede that in pursuit of what is unarguably a worthy goal, the protection of female identity, that inability to waver assertions damages the mental health of those with different-presenting gender identity, regardless of your opinion on the validity of that expression?

I see we've arrived at the you're all horrible big meanies, why can't you just be nice stage

newsflssh - mumsnet is not your actual mum and it's not our job to be nice just cos

It is not kindness for anyone to have to act as if someone else’s personally described reality that doesn’t reflect material reality. That is also not respectful to expect others to do it.

This is a specific board to discuss the impacts of sex and gender identity from a feminist perspective. Can you explain what it feminist about your personal position, please? I have read back but I am finding it rather confusing.