Is anyone on here trans-inclusive?

[plinkyplonk123]

Hi everyone, this is just a quick post to ask if anybody else on here is trans inclusive? I know I’m definitely in the minority here but I just wanted to see.

Particularly with reference to the fact that this is the feminism: sex and gender board, so we are likely to discuss feminism, sex and gender.

UnSettling and threatening in what way then? If not that I’m a threat and its underlying inference is that I have an unsettling interest in trans young people?

Your problem is that trans people want to redefine what other people are to accomodate their own sexism

I understand myself as a "woman" because that is (or was) the name for an adult human female. What connects me to other women is the reality of our bodies and that we experience our culture through the capabilities of that body and through the lens of how society frames it and reacts to it. This is significant to me.

But if you tell me trans women are also women, then you are changing that meaning away from adult human female into something else. I have no idea if the something else includes me or not. But I do know it is no longer something I value and consider significant and meaningful in understanding myself and my experiences.

In taking the name "woman" and changing it into something that also includes men just because they want it, you have undefined me. You have undefined my rights as a female person, you have disconnected us from each other and you have disconnected us from our history, from how the story of female people then leads to the experiences of female people now.

Why on earth do you think this is ok? Given that trans women are clearly something other than female, why is it so critical that they take the name "woman" away from female people? Why does this the thing that is "not a man" but not "female" not have its own new name and identity, leaving "woman" to mean what it always did?

Couldn't be less interested in whether you believe my argument is great or not.

It's exactly this kind of snarkiness - the actively going out of your way to pick, poke and goad - that I try to avoid.

What the fuck have I got to apologise for? I never said you threatened me or unsettled me like you did.

and yet I feel very very unsettled and threatened by your inferences.

im actually feeling sick and have sweat lashing off me so no i dont think ill participate in working through this thanks all the same.

Focussing on the legal issues & making it clear that that is the concern. Recognising that that is not what is happening & actively steering, through influence, the discourse towards that.

No, sorry. This is not clear at all.

Edited to add: What I mean is: you need to clarify what you mean by kindnesses and damage. I'm not the only one who didn't understand you.

I’ve made it clear that’s my concern. And you’ve dodged that and said you don’t know about that. When I tried to get clarity on what way you would handle those legal issues in your practice you called me threatening and said I was unsettling you.

We don't agree. I respect your viewpoint but it is a waste of time asking me to validate your viewpoint when you know we don't agree. I don't expect you to change yours.

For all I know any or all of you could be long distance lorry drivers called Keith taking a break on the M1.

Aw, @nicepotoftea , I hadn't realised we'd met 😉

@ForProudPinkPombear - this is a thread discussing inclusion or exclusion of people based on sex or gender. How can we possibly discuss this without reference to sex?

Sex isn't "my reality," it is a physical state. We can observe (or test for) the sex of mammals just as we can record age, height or eye colour.

I'm sure no one wants to distress you or diminish you. (Personally , I find it rude to think being called female is "diminishing")

But it's literally impossible to have a debate on this topic without talking about what sex people are. If you want to be a part of the discussion, surely you accept this is part of it?

If we can't name sex, we can't discuss sex based rights. That's the entire purpose of the board. And I mean this in good faith, not with any snark or cruelty.

Totally agree that no-one should be excluded because of their gender identity. We are all human no matter what.

You're being rather overdramatic about this.

Me then. Im trans inclusive by your definition.

I read it that the question was unsettling, not at all anything about you having an unsettling interest in trans young people!

I genuinely don't think that @ForProudPinkPombear meant anything like that and I don't think anyone else is reading it that way either.

I hope you are ok.

Any snarkiness comes from the fact that this is the feminist board, and suggesting that women should not have the language to define their rights comes across as being a bit 'mens rights activist'.

It's all very Dominc Raab c. 2011 (although on balance he is rather more feminist).

Seconded.

@Taztoy If you are getting in this kind of state because of something a random person on the internet has said (if they even said it in the way you have interpreted).

For your own sake, you might want to log off and go do something else for a bit. No opinion on MN is worth damaging your own mental health for.

I’m not. But thank you.

and toL those who think I’m being over dramatic. Possibly objectively yes but I have severe trauma that I’m working through and being inferred to be a sexual abuser which is what I took from the comment and being told I was a threat has massively triggered me.

and for that reason I am stepping away from this for now.

I don’t think trans individuals should be permitted to break the law and it’s that simple for me.

We understand what you meant, Taz, please feel assured of that, we're here for you

Nobody is expecting you to validate their viewpoint - we are expecting you to present an argument. You haven't done that. You have just talked about different realities.

That doesn't work on a parking thread and it doesn't work here.

X post. I am.

I’m beyond upset.

Do you recognise that the insistence by trans women that they should legitimately be treated as women because their personality is that of a woman (or trans men that they cannot be women because their personality does not) leaves many women feeling dehumanised? Leaves many women feeling reduced to sexist stereotypes?

Can you imagine how it feels to have that sexist view of women endorsed by employers, media and politicians?

Or do you think women aren't actually real people at all, just a sort of boring background of unexamined stereotypes against which trans identies can be played out?

I feel like I've had a lifetime's worth of conversations with people who are misconstruing my words & views. How is me asking people to not repeatedly tell me I'm female, me saying that we can't talk about sex? Are you saying biology is more important than psychology?

Can I also say, that you don't get to decide the status quo, you don't get to gatekeep whether I'm part of a discussion that involves me at every level because you disagree with how I view myself. And to say that it's rude that I have extremely damaging dysphoria?!? That's a particularly manipulative low blow. Have a word with yourself. Oh no, wait, you don't get any validation if it's just you in the convo do you? Jog on.

Trans people as we know them now have most certainly not always existed. They're a creation of the last few decades of medical innovation. Just for clarity.

I don't have the answers when it comes to prisons, refuges, public toilets, sports, any of it. I can see both sides & I want people to be safe. Are you asking me something specific, around how we deal with conflicts of interest in my workplace, around our trans youth? There haven't really been any. We have gender neutral toilets, separate changing rooms, we respect pronouns (and sometimes get them wrong). I train people to gain life skills, I don't deal with legality. I am now actually more interested in whether we do have policies relating to it.

Yes, I can understand all of that; this is however a presentation of your perspective on it; clouding facts with opinion makes it impossible for me to answer.