Has anyone left their spouse over GC views / pro-Islam stance

[PinkTreeFrog]

Husband and I could never find common ground on gender critical views and his blindness to the harms of Islam to women. He has an inability to take in information that contradicts his world view. Has anyone left a spouse over this?

I don’t agree with your views at all OP but I think that can almost be put to one side to get to the heart of what you’re asking - should partners agree on these sorts of things? I think for me it does matter. DH and I don’t agree on absolutely everything (for example he is more GC than me) but we are able to have good-natured conversation about things and our views aren’t fundamentally opposed. I think if we did disagree completely on big issues like gender and race, that would make our relationship extremely difficult.

I live in Ireland and used to see the occasional nun wearing a habit in the 1980s. I dont’t see any nowadays. There is a house near me with 3 nuns working in the parish and they just wear ordinary clothes.

If you care about women's rights, safety and freedoms, then it's very logical to be opposed to:

• adult males (however they identify) using women-only spaces, and
• misogynistic religious practices

Islam is much larger in number in the UK, than the (also awful, misogynistic and controlling) Orthodox Judaism. Hence people's primary focus on Islam.

I've lived in London for over 2 decades. I've seen an Orthodox Jewish man/group of men in public only a dozen or so times. Never a woman. Which is, of course, a red flag itself.

But I see multiple women in hijabs (often with floor-sweeping baggy black tunics) on a daily basis in central Westminster. In nearby Edgware Road and Paddington, women in full face-covering burqas are very common.

No woman should be required to shroud herself in fabric in order to be 'modest' and not inflame men's 'uncontrollable lusts'. It is regressive, depressing and insulting.

I haven't read all the comments. I think it's probably very common over the course of a long relationship for political views to diverge somewhat. I don't think it's essential for two people to agree on everything in a relationship but I think agreeing to disagree is probably the best solution rather than trying to change someone else's mind.

Ok so just forget the old Testament? Chuck that out it doesn't matter anymore? Really? The ten commandments are over ridden by the new Testament? Wow.

If you convert to islam for a man, not from your heart and own beliefs then shes not a true Muslim.
I reverted after learning from my husband and felt it in my heart thats what I wanted. I was Christian before but lost my interest in the church as I couldn't fathom worshipping jesus who God created. Not the other way round or how he can be God and son of God. I beleived in one God , one creator, one lord.

Youre right to say no one should impose their religion but its also good to share knowledge and learn similarities and differences. For example Muslims believe in Jesus and mother Mary. And we love jesus as a mighty prophet. And we beleive in his miraculous birth and his second coming and the miracles which he performed through God's will.

I wear hijab. For the reasons being : God said to do so, in the quran and the old Testament. I believe in a lot of verses that mirror the old ans new Testament and quran and i wont have anyone tell me otherwise.
Secondly, I dont want any man outside my husbans and family regardless of who they are to see my hair, neck and chest. I really dont.

I dont care if anyone thinks im.opressed. really couldn't give a monkeys bananas. I love hijab and my non Muslim family and friends comment on how pretty my scarves are and that they suit me. And if a nun covers her hair ,and someone said shes opressed I wouldn't be happy with that either. I dont see myself lesser than my husband. I dont cover because men cant control themselves. I cover simply because I don't want any one seeing my hair, if they're Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, Sikh, atheist, Muslim, whatever. Im happy. My husband actually never once asked or told me to wear the hijab and I did it off my own back ine year after reverting to islam. Thats really it.

Are you able to say a bit more about why you don't want people outside your family seeing your hair @Judgejudysno1fan ? I'd genuinely like to understand more about that viewpoint. To me it's just...hair. But it has more significance than that for you?

(I'm asking in good faith, for the purpose of learning something. I'm not being goady like some on this thread)

@KitWyn
”I've lived in London for over 2 decades. I've seen an Orthodox Jewish man/group of men in public only a dozen or so times. Never a woman. Which is, of course, a red flag itself.”

That’s weird, and makes me think that you’re expecting Charedi women to be wearing different clothes than they are - so you didn’t recognise them. They tend to be the ones who work - the men are often studying - and there’s no ‘you shouldn’t go out unless a man is with you’.

For some reason @ThatBlackCat is missing out the rules for women that are in the new testament

Eph 5:22-23 " Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. "

1 Tim 2:9-12 "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

1Pe 3:1-3 " Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives.While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel."

Col 3:18 " Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. "

1 Cor 14:34-35 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. "

There is more, but I will tag this bit on here, because it's about head covering.

1 Cor 11:5 " But every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven."

And of course, re the OT rules, Jesus himself mentioned that in Matt 5:18 " For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

So that was Jesus saying the Mosaic law still stands. What fulfilled means ? No idea.

So the NT is totally clear, women are to be silent, be obedient to their husbands, and cover their head when they prey.

Just because many Christians of today choose to ignore what is written in the NT, it does not mean the rules are not written there.

All verses I quoted are from the KJV.

And no, this is not a chatGPT post. I am ex Christian and have a bible app to cut and paste from.

.

Because I see it more than just hair. I see it as beauty. And some Muslim women in Africa who have short almost bald hair still cover.
All Women can see my hair.
My husband, my father, father in law, grandfather, grandfather in law, maternal uncles and paternal uncles, my nephews and my brothers can see my hair, young cousins but not older cousins can see my hair, young kids can see my hair.

Its also about not showing your figure too. Men are attracted to women, if a man sees a nice good looking lady hes going to turn his head. Its all about protecting your beauty from unwanted glances and stares or awful men trying to chat you up.

Yes thanks for clarifying that and I appreciate it @Greyskybluesky ❤️

Ok, thank you for sharing these.

If your ex Christian what are you now?
If you dont mind my asking ?

Thanks @Judgejudysno1fan . I really appreciate the explanation 💐

Yeah, that’s definitely a hardcore supercessionist view, which is, shall we say, considered a bit outdated by most of the major Christian denominations.

I am atheist now. But like ex smokers, I think ex Bible reading Christians are the worst. Cos many of us know the Bible. :-)

The Bible is an horrific book really. Or at least it is when one reads it without the Christian specs on.

But this is not the thread for that. I was just responding to a post, doing a fact check thing.

I just think it odd when I see Christians say Muslims have no choice but to follow the Quaran to the letter, when the Christians ignore their own book.

I think you meant ‘cherrypicked’ rather than cut and pasted.

Ephesians 5:21 “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ” and then 25: Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her… the entire passage is about reciprocal behaviour.

1 Timothy - it’s a favourite, this one, and again ignores the context. Which is about proper worship behaviour. Using the KJV is an oldie but goodie, because it avoids all those annoying translation difficulties (a man meaning any man or a husband? Does a woman learn in quietness mean don’t ask questions or let women learn quietly?)

Colossians - oh look, we’ve left out the rules for husbands again…

1 Corinthians, also about proper behaviour in a Greek church that’s clearly indulging in some ‘interesting’ behaviour, circa AD 50.

I’d generally say that the NT, as a collection of Graeco-Roman biographies, letters to churches in various types of difficulties and a prophetic vision that always makes me wonder what kind of mushrooms grew on Patmos - is really not the kind of instruction manual that you’d use to set up your laptop. But you’re not even treating it as instruction manual; just as a source for quote mining. Chat GTP would probably have done a better job.

Totally as expected. " Cherrypicked", "Context", "translations".

I am not cherry picking. I am quoting verses from the Bible. Do I really need to quote the whole chapter or book ? It's right there in black and white. I am not writing an instruction manel, just quoting the Bible.

I am atheist, so make no difference to me what is written in the book. It just seems odd to me that many Christians want others to live by their rules, while ignoring them themselves.

I have most of the other Bible versions, inc the Greek.

But if you are saying the Bible is wrong, I totally agree. As a guide to life and morals, it misses the target by miles.

I think we are the opposite of you.
my husband is very anti-Muslim and thinks trans people should be tolerated as mentally ill people, like the guy in our village that dances nonstop. He can’t stand still or walk normally, he has to dance everywhere.

I personally think that the two children of Judaism and Judaism itself are all patriarchal religions and as such will always have fundamentalists that refuse to progress into the 21st century and use Judaism/Christianity/Islam to oppress women.

Devout women in all three religions have a tradition of covering their hair, in Judaism many wear headscarfs that cover their hair, it’s just tied differently. Devout women in Christianity- ie nuns also cover their hair. It is all copied from my religion. It’s also so minor an issue, when there are still serious threats to our rights from religious extremists - abortion bans, child and forced marriage, lack of divorce rights, access to education and professions.

I think hyperfocusing on the fundamentalists of one of these three religions is kind of hypocritical especially for an American. How can OP seriously be thinking of divorcing her husband over the hijab having voted for Trump&Vance? Vance of the church that thinks women should not have the right to vote, to hold any public office, to a university education or to any professional career?

Shows a serious lack of critical thinking. 🤨

So you were expecting to be told about cherrypicking, context and translations? That’s because they’re important. That’s why people keep telling you about them.

Do you really need to quote the whole chapter or book? Well, you need to not quote one verse because it supports your arguments and ignore the verses which don’t. It’s no use going ‘it’s right there in black and white.’ Selective quotations are a very old trick, most recently discussed in depth on the Sandie Peggie tribunal judgement threads.

Straw man arguments, where you complain that people aren’t following rules you made up are another old trick. The rule that I have to take every verse in the bible literally is one you made up. It’s not a Jewish rule, it’s not a Christian rule.

As to its missing its mark by miles - yeah, if you trawl through the many bibles on your shelf looking for the bits to justify your atheism, it will keep missing the mark for you. If I were you, I’d pop those bibles in storage, get off the atheist websites (or whatever) and stop thinking you have to justify not being a Christian. You don’t.

Quote : "So you were expecting to be told about cherrypicking, context and translations? That’s because they’re important. That’s why people keep telling you about them"

That is usually the way it goes yes. When one quotes parts of the Bible to dispute a point made- about the Bible.

In this case It was a poster, @ThatBlackCat, who had said "..... And the difference is the New Testament over-rides the Old Testament. We don't live by the Old Testament. Christianity has changed. Islam, has not."

I was just quoting the NT. Because even if one decides to ignore the OT, the NT is still pretty bad.

The next stage is usually the " you were never a real Christian, often followed by accusations of me being a demon or whatever.

And no, I am not trying to justify being an atheist. It's just one of those things where after having spent years reading and studying the Bible as a believer, that knowledge can be useful if the Bible is being discussed.

What anyone chooses to believe or not believe, what is written in the Bible is what is written.

I was only posting about what someone had said about the Bible, nothing else.

I know it's a bit of a side issue but want to comment. Of course Islam harms women. As does any religion that treats women as not-really-people. E.g. they can't be priests. Hijabs are just a big bright in-your-face flag saying women aren't really people. Everything about them means sex. Including something as ordinary as the hair on their heads. And yet so many women and men are so busy respecting "cultures" that respecting women as real human beings gets lost.

No. Just no. Nothing nuanced about it.

(Also of course: women can choose to wear what they want. But that doesn't change its meaning.)

This is profoundly sad.

So a 'good' Muslim woman must hide her 'beauty' (which means her hair, general body shape, even her face), in case a strange man looks at her and finds her attractive? Surely that's very much his problem, not yours?

There does seem to be a strong whiff of insecure and controlling men protecting their 'property' from the sight/interest of other men. Don't they trust their wives or their male friends/colleagues? That some women are happy to pretend that this is a sign of his love/devotion - or even that it is really the woman's own idea - is extremely depressing.

Head hair is just hair. We are neither Rapunzel nor Samson. It's not even something that signals puberty/physical maturity, such as beard hair. Little girls and boys typically have a full head of hair from around 2-3 years old. That hair is surely not, in anyone's minds, remotely sexually provocative.

I very strongly believe that some women try much too hard to please a man they love (or think they might love). But, she'll risk losing the very best of herself in the process, and having a smaller, less rewarding life as a consequence.

A good man, whatever his religion or absence of religion, would not want women and girls to have to shroud and hide themselves in public for fear of male harassment. Instead he would expect men to treat all people, including women and girls, with dignity and respect.

OP, you'll get nowhere on this thread now you've been critical of Islam. It's the ultimate conversation derailer. Posters will be falling over themselves to prove how very not-racist they are, by defending Islam from feminist critique that would be considered perfectly valid if aimed at any other religion. As you already see happening.

For what it's worth, I'm sorry you're going through the divorce. But I doubt the two issues you've mentioned are the sole cause of it. This kind of values mis-match is usually a symptom of deeper issues in the relationship - especially if you can't hear each other out and work through it. It's probably more of a "straw that broke the camel's back" situation than the actual reason you're leaving your husband.

Give yourself time. You're still processing all of this, and you might be surprised the things you uncover as you move forward

It's not about defending Islam, it's about recognizing the right of people to religion, and just as importantly, recognizing that belief and practice of any specific religion is on a scale. From cultural, thro moderate, all the way to ultra extremist.

When it comes to Islam, there does seem to be a section of society that yell ISIS at the mere sight of anything Muslim at all, and it is that tarring all with the same brush is just wrong.

ALL religious texts have things that can be seen as misogynistic as they were written a long time ago. People can interpret and follow the bits they like.