Would a biological woman identifying as a trans woman be accepted in the trans community?

[quickquestion12345]

Just curious really if this is something that happens. And if not, what the argument (by trans people) would be against it. Sorry if it’s been covered before. Just been working through some stuff in my head and started to wonder about this!

So just to be extra clear do you think a biological woman can be a trans woman?

If a dude can say he’s a woman. Then a woman can say she’s a transwoman.

The point of it is the fact that words are meaningless.

What’s actually had me doubled over in laughter

All transwomen are women

but women cannot be transwomen

So how can women not be transwomen? or maybe the first statement is the lie

I have a transman family member who was a hetero woman but then declared they were a gay trans man.

I'm just wondering how far they can identify as a gay man in terms of being accepted as such.

I mean a genuine gay man surely wouldn't date someone with a vagina, even if no breasts and lower voice, short hair etc? And they won't have experienced homophobia in the way a regular gay man would have.

It feels like they might be limiting themselves to only dating other transmen when they say they are only attracted to actual bio gay men.

I know you didn’t ask me.

The answer is a woman can be a trans woman if a trans woman can be a woman.

I suppose anyone can say they are anything they want really, everything seems to go these days. I do struggle with understanding how a biological woman can be a trans woman because they are not transitioning from anything. Even if the biological woman identifies as non binary then why would they want to decide to trans as a woman, they are a woman. If they’re non binary they do t identify with a gender so why would they identify as a trans woman, if they’re non binary wanted to not be non binary they’d just be a woman

Your absolute word salad paragraph just goes to show the utter nonsensical status of the debate around this.

If a biological man = transwoman = woman

Then biological woman = transman = man = transwoman = woman

You can no more transition from a woman to a woman as a man to a woman

Transition is meaningless.

Define transition?

Men with penises who have sex with men - homosexuals - do not want to have sex with women with vaginas.

Some might argue her approach is homophobic as it denies men their right to have sex with men.

Yeah I know what you mean.

@Coconutter24 Yes I guess it depends on how you define transition. Because there is no physical change required with transition as it is understood now from man to woman. So a female could transition to a transwoman as that is how she feels.

Is it supposed to work like this?

There is an umbrella term of ‘woman’ and within this there are sub categories of transwoman and biological woman. These two categories cannot become each other. (Although I realise there have been transwomen calling themselves biological women.) Transwomen experience particular challenges due to the fact they are trans. Biological women are privileged due to not being trans. (Although some will be trans men.)

So within this framework, presumably biological women can discuss and campaign on issues that affect only them as a sub category of women? And set their own boundaries? And meet as this particular group? And request services that are based on sex? Why would this be bigoted because by default they are a separate category as they are not transwomen.

All of this involves redefining the word woman of course to be an umbrella term rather than a term linked to sex, but presumably that is the point from a trans rights perspective. It also ignores that there is no clear definition of trans. E.g. can someone only be trans if they have genuine motivations? How are these defined and where is the line drawn?

I can just never seem to make it all work.

No, you'd just be a woman.
Which is what you were to start with.

Of course. Because cis women are women and so are trans women. So they're all just women.

@Slightyamusedandsilly ok that’s interesting. I had got the impression that biological women wouldn’t be accepted as identifying as transwomen. But genuinely it isn’t something I know much about!

You say transition is meaningless but that’s what I’m saying in the case of a biological woman wanting to be a trans woman

Define any transition - what does it mean? Who decides what it is?

Transition in most cases is a thought experiment. No one transitions - because a man who wants to identify in another gender does not transition.

Trans identifying men are a distinct group.

They are biological men who think they are women.

Say I am a biological woman. I can think I am a man who thinks they are a women. It’s different to being a woman as it’s actually being a man with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. And why not? It’s all a thought experiment.

No one actually transitions to anything else. Men are men. Women are women. Transitions are a thought experiment.

@quickquestion12345 "So within this framework, presumably biological women can discuss and campaign on issues that affect only them as a sub category of women? And set their own boundaries? "

Sub categories would be a dangerous precedent. Would anyone advocate for sub-categories of African, Asian or European? And can you imagine men supporting sub-categories of their sex? In any event, it has been argued ad nauseam that transwomen should have their own spaces/agencies/facilities and likewise women. But the trans community are (too often) violently opposed to the idea as it invalidates them as "real women".

What’s a cis woman? I mean I know a “transwoman” is a male claiming a trans identity, so what is a “cis” woman?

But it’s also meaningless in the case of a man wanting to be a woman.

There is a an American"drag queen" who is a trans man who identifies as a "gay man" surely thats a woman who just has a gay man fantasy ?

Transition by definition is
the process that a transgender person permanently adopts the outward or physical characteristics that match the gender they identify as opposed to the sex they were born

So a man having breast implants or a woman having surgery to remove breasts would be a transition. Biologically they are still the same sex they were born as.

I know

A woman. I don’t know why people don’t just say a woman and need to add ‘cis’ to it. It means someone who’s gender matches their sex

Well exactly, that’s what a judge said in the tribunal recently, what is the definition of the start and finish of the transition.
What is the process of transition?
How does an organisation say the transition is complete, for admin purposes? Or that the transition has begun?

It’s all very airy fairy, unlike maternity leave, no right to privacy on mat leave.

I think that it means a woman who comes from the Italian side of the Alps.

There’s no opportunity to feel marginalised. I think you've hit the nail on the head...