A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

There a have been studies to suggest that the average people 'experiences' about 60 faces a day, about half of them familiar. That would work out to something like 100 new trans people a year, there being a very great deal of variability in the number of faces 'experienced' - for some people in certain occupations and locals the number could easily be more than 1000. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that a great many present as their biological sex, either habitually or in part. So, in reality the number of trans presenting people on the street is probably a great deal less than 1%.

Firstly, I don't agree with your premise that trans women are all identifiable & secondly don't I agree with your premise that they demand other's believe that they pass whether they do or not.

My understanding is that some trans people being unidentifiable don't want to be outed for safety reasons which given their propensity to be victims of hate crimes & discrimination is justifiable.

Um this is evolutionary psychology 101 stuff. Hardly my 'idea'…

My premise is that some are identifiable, and that we are required to pretend, not that they pass, but that they are women. For example by being punished for misgendering and by being forced to cede sex-based rights (let's say, eg, single-sex changing rooms in the workplace) to them. Privacy right? Why?

That's not what you implied in your initial post but in any case, trans people passing is irrelevant to their right to identity which is a pillar of human rights .

IE You don't get to decide whether others have a right to their identity just like they don't have a right to yours. The categorical error you are making here is the assumption that gender is limited to sexual reproductive characteristics when that's just an opinion.

And noone is demanding you believe anything rather you respect their choices. Just like we accept & respect there are other religions or belief in god even if we don't agree with them.

And the right to privacy is not absolute for anyone and can be limited by public authorities, but only if the interference is in accordance with the law and necessary in a democratic society for specific reasons like public safety, national security, or the protection of health and morals.

If trans people “passing” is irrelevant to their rights to identity, why do we need to puberty block children?

If trans people “passing” is irrelevant to their rights to identity, why can’t trans identifying men use men’s spaces?

It’s all very contradictory isn’t it? Almost as if the entire ideology is built on faith and falsehoods.

"If trans people “passing” is irrelevant to their rights to identity, why do we need to puberty block children?"

The right to identity & the right to health care are two different issues. Identity pertains to what you believe you are & how you want to be socially considered as & gender affirming care is about aligning the physical with the mental for personal comfort & social acceptance.

"If trans people “passing” is irrelevant to their rights to identity, why can’t trans identifying men use men’s spaces?"

Trans women have safety issues in men's spaces which his irrelevant to how they perceive themselves or want others to treat them.

That's not what you implied in your initial post

You do know my initial post is still there and available to read, right?

Anyhow, I respect the right of people to believe in gender identity theory, including the right of men to think they are women, but I do not accept that they have a right to force me to pretend that I share those beliefs, or to force me to pretend that they are women. This is an Article 9 abuse (religion and belief).

And since I can see that they are men, where does Article 8 come into it at all?

What?! Even elderly people who are all out of hormones?

social acceptance

That’s “passing”. Gender clinicians admit they transition children so they can pass better. But they don’t need to pass. And they’ll pass eventually once their facial bones disappear.

So child medical transition is not at all necessary. Why is no one listening to you on this. Is that frustrating?

Trans women have safety issues in men's spaces

Yet strangely men don’t care and trans identifying men can’t give any example of any threat to them. Does it only become dangerous when their facial bones disappear?

I mean, it’s terrible when even TRAs are saying child medical transition is unnecessary and no one is listening.

#sadtimes

You do know my initial post is still there and available to read, right?

Yeah & when it finally got to the point at the end it said:

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right."

And I addressed this false assumption.

"Anyhow, I respect the right of people to believe in gender identity theory, including the right of men to think they are women, but I do not accept that they have a right to force me to pretend that I share those beliefs, or to force me to pretend that they are women. This is an Article 9 abuse (religion and belief)."

No one is forcing you to believe or even agree with another's belief, just respect their right to it. Using preferred pronouns is about being non discriminatory in social convention & not about belief. Allowing trans women into women's spaces is not about forcing belief but respecting other's beliefs.

"And since I can see that they are men, where does Article 8 come into it at all?"

This right protects against arbitrary interference and includes the right to control one's personal information, such as their gender identity. For transgender people, this can be crucial in protecting them from forced disclosure of their gender identity and potential harassment, discrimination, or violence. So obviously this is about a trans person who is not identifiable.

No hormones.
No facial bones.
All monotones.
Like Bridget Jones.

That’s “passing”. Gender clinicians admit they transition children so they can pass better. But they don’t need to pass. And they’ll pass eventually once their facial bones disappear.

Nope, social acceptance is not just about passing. Passing helps social acceptance but not everyone passes so the point of acceptance is that regardless of passing, gender identification is respected.

"So child medical transition is not at all necessary."

As already mentioned its personal comfort & assists social acceptance.

Why is no one listening to you on this. Is that frustrating?

Nope. I know where I am & have no false illusions. But as far as 'no one' goes you don't know that. People can be resistant initially to learning new information but they have been known to change over time. You don't always get the fruits immediately on planting seeds….

Forcing me to allow a transwoman to share a changing room with me does not respect my belief that he is a man. Pluralism of belief has to go both ways, or one set of believers are merely forcing their beliefs onto another.

"So child medical transition is not at all necessary."
As already mentioned its personal comfort & assists social acceptance.

So personal comfort and social acceptance are good enough reasons to sterilise children? Remove their sexual function? To shorten their lives? And that’s considered a fair swap? Even though they’ll pass when their facial bones disappear?

You seem very confused. I’m not sure how anyone can consider social acceptance a valid reason to sterilise a child.

Beliefs having competing rights isn't new like sharing public spaces for places of worship. As the definition states those rights can be limited if there's a compelling reason. Women feeling threatened can be one of them but isn't necessarily consistent across cultures. Clearly many countries don't have the same concerns hence no interest in limiting trans women from private spaces.

"So personal comfort and social acceptance are good enough reasons to sterilise children? Remove their sexual function? To shorten their lives? And that’s considered a fair swap? Even though they’ll pass when their facial bones disappear?"

According to medical experts globally? Yes. As 'crazy' as it sounds maintaining mental health is a necessity. Parenting kinda hinges on that…

Clearly many countries are rife with misogyny and in the grip of magical thinking. I'm proud to live on TERF Island, where fewer than 20% of population believe in gender identity theory. Furthermore, since it hinges on an unfalsifiable metaphysical proposition, there's no justification for building it into the law or our health and education systems.

So it’s “maintaining mental health” now? Not social acceptance? Make your mind up.

And medical experts globally don’t agree. See all the countries that have stopped transitioning children. Again, you seem very confused as to the state of things.

I see the clocks have gone back.

Lots of countries have their own religious fervour.

Goodnight

Regardless of the time in Sydney, men still don’t pass.