A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

Hello @KnottyAuty not seen you for a while

[waves] 😙
Been very busy IRL
not much time to post at the moment but just been trying to keep up with the reading - so many ETs so little time!

I'm really sorry, but I can't see him as a woman. He's obviously male in a couple of the images, and once you see it, you can't unsee it. It's like 'the dress'.

In my experience you can recognise almost all transwomen and most transmen.

I would however make an exception for teenagers who can often be androgynous enough to pass.

I did at one time know a transwoman who sort of passed, in the sense that people often wondered about his sex but could equally imagine either to be true. This was due to a combination of size and build (tall for a woman short for a man,) a voice that was high for a man but low for a woman, advanced age that blurred some common signs, and a tendency to dress in a way that did not seem to emphasise a preformative element.

Just to let you know, many town centres have more than 200 people there on a weekend.

Not OP, but I am happy to talk about my experience and answer questions. I’m a transsexual woman and I acknowledge that I haven’t biologically changed sex. I’m in my 20s and I transitioned 5 years ago, had reassignment surgery 3 years ago. I haven’t noticed a difference pre and post-FWS. I was initially quite anxious after the judgement, but I’m still treated the same as I was before and haven’t experienced any issues. If/when I encounter an issue I will use a gender neutral space, but I personally wouldn’t feel comfortable using a male space

Um, it's not exactly Maya Forstater types rocking fashion magazine covers, instagram followers & marketing campaigns.

The sales speak for themselves….

Yeah, sure you don't….😂

I bet the Maya Forstater types (whatever that's meant to mean but clearly derogatory) are gutted

Honestly, it's all about the looks and perceived attractiveness for you isn't it?

I assure you that "most women" wouldn't aspire to look like a fairly average studenty type who resembles most of their kids friend's

No offence to that guy, whoever he is

I think that person would be disgusting for hiding that information from someone they intend to be intimate with.

I think he photographs very convincingly as a woman but I’ve just watched a video of him on Insta that immediately shows him to be a biological man. The pitch of his voice and exaggerated female mannerisms give him away.

Yep, the streets are full of what is societally considered as attractive but they are also full of those who aren't.

You need to get out more…

I usually notice from having my attention caught, it’s usually a male energy and then a person dressed in a performative way

Correction: many men would like to look like him. Most women couldn’t give 2 fucks. We’re not as competitive as you’d hoped.

Right, before I go to bed, I'm going to reveal why I used the word 'virtually' in OP. Patti Harrison. I didn't see it at all, despite watching several episodes of Poker Face in which Harrison is literally playing a character who might be a man in disguise. Possible reasons - ethnicity, excellent voice and movement training (I've seen older videos that show how much both have changed), and the fact it's not real life.

I still have no insight into how many such excellent simulacra exist, though.

Yes you're absolutely right, I must. Otherwise I might turn into someone who thinks Internet non-entities are something women aspire to be.
And that would be tragic.

You’re confusing gender dysphoria with body dysmorphia btw. As I already said, I acknowledge that I am male and I don’t see myself as identical to women.

I really did try to accept myself as I was for a long time, but it didn’t work for me and just made me miserable. I’ve found a peace and comfort that I never had before and my life is better in almost every way now, so no I haven’t considered just ‘being a man’ whatever that means

It's not about make up or clothing, men can buy the best or look like clowns, it's the whole body form and movement that is a give-away.

For women suddenly caught off guard by a man pretending to be a woman, there's a moment of hesitation (shock) before it's possible to quietly back away. There's no way to block the flinch response as there's no way for a man to be a woman.

Women can be surprised even by women if they think no one is behind a door, behind them etc. but it takes microseconds to acknowledge it's another woman.

I never suggested all women would. I specifically said many & the evidence bares out.

Of course many say the don't care how they look. But what's interesting about the peoples who 'don't care' is they seem to care very much indeed about those who do. Enough to rage against them incessantly for supposedly enforcing gender stereotypes. They can't or won't conceive of them having organic instinctual inclinations towards making themselves more attractive to the opposite sex.

Doth protest too much? Hmmmm?

Their authentic selves would then mean that they have not changed sex and that they use the provisions provided for their sex or seek their own alternative that is not the provision provided for the opposite sex.

Ha! Abigail Thorn outed himself to me on University Challenge by shouting the answers, interrupting, and talking over his team-mates.

So Howse was right! Gender is a constellation of thingummy.

And the hands.

And the voice.

Why aren’t you using an alternative provision now? Am I reading this correctly in that you use female single sex provision now?

You know that your presence in a female single sex has a very high chance of causing distress in the female people using those provisions. If you are using those provisions, why do you disrespect female people’s needs?