A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

There's this thing called 'nut picking'….

My physical body seems to have programmed me to organically gravitate towards comfortable and practical clothing, which is interesting since as an actual woman, Pigeon Theory suggests that I should like wearing something I don't know full skirted, twirly, low cut, pink, with sparkles and flowers on it (I was aiming for as many "girly" stereotypes as I could think of in one dress).

Pigeon Theory would categorise me as a man. Which I guess just proves that Pigeon Theory isn't worth the guano it's written in 😂

And if no one can see bone structure on older people, why do older trans identifying men bother with facial feminisation surgery? What a waste of money. All that chiselling and no one can tell!

I doubt that's an elderly trans woman common thing.

There is no "organic personal preference" for high heels, halter neck crop tops or bodycon dresses. Or even a twinset and pearls. That's just ridiculous.

1%. 1 in a hundred people.
Towns have tens to hundreds of thousands of people in them

So far, we’ve surmised:

Children don’t need to be puberty blocked, because if they just hang on long enough to get old they’ll pass.

Young trans identifying men don’t pass.

But there’s no point getting any surgery because no one will be able to see your bones when you’re older and you’ll pass anyway.

Women and trans identifying men “organically gravitate” towards stereotypical feminine clothing because they’re sexually motivated.

It’s all very enlightening, isn’t it?

I bet it’s quite intensely painful, too. Why would they, as you say.

Oh it's true. I hit menopause and now my face is just a popped balloon. Im sure I used to have cheekbones. Perhaps I mislaid them. Forget my head next 😂

Are you seriously suggesting humans don't organically want to make themselves more physically attractive to the opposite sex? They need to be told to first?

🤪

Do you really think people spend their entire lives trying to attract new sexual partners?

Sorry to disappoint Howse but the women of my mum’s female line have perfectly visible facial bone structure. My gran had it until her death at 92 and was very obviously an elderly woman, not an elderly man.

No. But that they do most of it for their child bearing years points to something inherent about survival particularly if you consider we weren't really designed to live into old age.

If clothing preferences are all chosen without any external influences, how do you explain fashions changing over time and being different in different parts of the world?

Women buy clothes for a variety of reasons. You don't want to hear this, but "looking sexy" is right at the bottom of the list. It's not even on the list at all for some women.

But you wouldn't know that, would you? Being a man.

Do they? Doesn't anyone get married or have a stable relationship while they're bringing up children where you live?

One can only accurately measure organic influences in more egalitarian societies where there are less pressures to conform to cultural influences.

That's why when gendered employment preferences are measured, data analysts look to Scandinavia & other modern Western countries to get more accurate readings.

But how do people choose a partner for the purposes of making a baby?! We're all so hard to correctly sex after all 😂

Me and my wardrobe of comfortably baggy t-shirts, jumpers and trousers with decent pockets, and my lack of makeup, swishy hairstyle, and spangly jewellery make me a man according to Pigeon Theory, so I'd have a right old job of work on my hands to impregnate a "woman"... if I could find "her" amongst all the other nebulously gormless miasma of impossible to sex people😂

Are you suggesting people in long term relationships with children don't need to continue making themselves attractive to one another?

Kinda opens the door to cheating let alone less marital procreation…

Yes, but the gendered fashion industry success not to mention the cosmetic & gym ones don't lie.

This is all theory for you, isn't it? No practical experience.

It stands to reason that if you think trans identifying men choose their clothes due to sexual motivation, then you’d think women would too. It just indicates the mindset of someone who admits men choose their clothes due to sexual motivation.

@Howseitgoin

I threw in the towel on passability several pages ago, so why are you still arguing about it?

Presumably you acknowledge that some transwomen exist who don't pass (actually, knowing what we know now about your eyesight, I'm dreading the answer to this). So, what do you think of the application of Article 8 to them? What need do they have for privacy, when we can see what they are? And how is forcing us to pretend they are women a privacy right at all?

If that makes you feel better i'll be 'womanly' #kind to you & say yes.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Ouch!