A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

And of course trans women don't know - can't know - how their life would have turned out if they HAD taken puberty blockers as a child.

Using puberty blockers to stop themselves going through the bodily changes of a natural male puberty, would have also potentially resulted in:

• Infertility (any children they have now, wouldn't exist)
• Difficulty finding a romantic/sexual partner - particularly if attracted to women (if married to wife in real life, probably wouldn't have happened with PBs)
• Lowered IQ. Puberty is something the brain goes through as well as the body
• Lowered ability to think like an Adult (Rational, long-term, calm, strategic) rather than a Child (Irrational, impulsive, short-term and lack of focus)
• Lowered ability to experience sexual pleasure
• Reduced bone density, heightened risk of osteoporosis
• Bottom surgery requiring use of colonic tissue, due to small penile size

The research/evidence available on the above concerns is not fully robust. There was, and is, a great deal of resistance to it being comprehensively gathered and evaluated. But what is available, is very worrying, and a clear case for great caution.

The benefits of 'passing' as an adult, do not appear to outweigh these very large and damaging risks to the body and mind. Why would anyone want this to be done to children?

And at what age do older trans identifying men start “passing” convincingly in their stereotypical fantasy clothing? So they don’t pass when they’re 20, 30, 40…is it 50? Given 60 is the new 50, do they still not pass at 55 but then suddenly pass later?

Are we describing a Men-o-pass?

Because “passing” outweighs all the harms in the minds of TRAs and gender clinicians.

In actual fact, this chap wasn't fat at all.

Menopause does make some women carry more fat on their stomach - but other women simply do not gain any fat there at all. Moreover, a rounder stomach was once seen as an asset in some cultures.

Not all men become pot-bellied as they become older and it's certainly not the case that all women gain belly fat.

Taken as a whole, it's not difficult to spot a biological male in real life.

Organic gravitation eh? I'm adding that to my stock of potential usernames, together with worrying soup and gormless miasma.

I'd say a men-NO-pass

What a load of tosh. An organic gravitation? Really?

So... you are saying that they look alike because the woman's face has "masculinised" because she's old?
In other words, "he looks like a man but so does she" hmmmm
Odd argument to make.

To be clear, oestrogen loss does not masculinise women's faces. The underlying bone structure remains exactly the same. And they do NOT look alike

Because socially the whole package is assessed IE as in breasts, skin, attire, height, frame etc.

Trans women who have obvious tell tale signs are more likely to get caught out like lack of breasts, height, frame or skin differences if they haven't been on hormones.

Just when I think Howse can't get any more ridiculous he comes out with another hilarious 'fact' about women.

Now we all apparently have "an organic gravitation to feminine attire."

I think I must be an anti-gravity woman. Or perhaps I'm inorganic.

Whether or not all people fit the the criteria is irrelevant to a pattern which has been recognised.

Wow, someone has never been to the mall or understands how female fashion powers the GDP…😂

It’s not about his height. He doesn’t pass as a woman.

Underlying bone facial structure is irrelevant for older women because of skin changes. IE we can't see the facial bones on living people.

And it's not just me, that claims women's faces masculinise, science backs it up.

You’re phoning it in now aren’t you, you posted exactly the same comment on a different thread.

In other words then, older women don't get mistaken for men because their 'whole package', body size, shape and skin (none of which are 'social', BTW) is recognisably female. And TW are recognised as men because their body size, shape and skin (still not 'social') are recognisably male? Isn't that what people on here have been saying all along?

Oh yah of course we can’t perceive bone structure at all

Oh did I? Its not like repetition is exactly a GC no no? 😂

Depends on the individual. Are you seriously suggesting all men have the same morphology?

Next thing, you'll be telling us that women who are 3 or 4 months pregnant - the stage where the waist thickens for many - look like men.

You're grasping at straws if you're claiming that a larger belly makes a woman look like a man.

Not all women are interested in that stuff. Doesn't make us men though.

in Howse’s Big Book of Woman it does.

'An organic gravitation to feminine attire?" 😂
Tell us another. That was gold!

If you mean that we are constantly pointing out that men are not women, then touché. Alternatively, tired of explaining reality to… you get the point.

I might have missed it, but I'm still wondering what was meant by an "organic gravitation" to certain items of clothing.