A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

Not all men are that tall is the point. If you consider average heights of men in countries, you'd be surprised.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_country

@Mamma246 “feminism is about ensuring that people of all genders have equal rights, opportunities, and respect.”

EH? what’s that got to do with feminism? Where is the focus on women? The femi part?

If trans identifying men pass so well, why do children need to be puberty blocked to help them pass better when they’re older? Because that’s the only reason it’s done.

I see the IncelsRUs rep has arrived for their night time howl at women (along with a dose of ageism. homophobia and misogyny).

The reminder about pigeon chess seems appropriate.

The point is some older trans women do pass as older women if they are on hormones because older women's faces change due to ageing & menopause.

The comparison is with older people.

And if trans identifying men pass so well, why is it always the older ones with an AGP profile who are vocally campaigning for children to be puberty blocked? Anja Ravine, one of the men in that photo is one of them for example.

To clarify, Anja Ravine is an older man, not necessarily has an AGP profile. But lots of older men talk about how they wished they could have been puberty blocked. But if they all pass so well, why the desperation? And why do they want kids to not go through what they’ve been through? It’s a mystery…

Uh oh, are the 'men in dresses' people's feelings hurt 'cause ….they too look like 'men in dresses'?

Biology is real! 😫

Weeeell, "here's your coffee love, and by the way, I can tell you're man." Is not a normal thing to say in general conversation .
Just as one example you understand

Could be could be.

YES! I knew that posting style was familiar

If older women and TW share an 'older woman' masculine look, I wonder why only one group gets 'misgendered' on the regular?

Now riddle me this:

If its misogynistic to say some women exhibit male physical characteristics as they age is it also misogynistic to use the word 'butch' to describe a female? Or are we supposed to #bekind & pretend they have nothing in common with men, 'cause y'know 'hiding our true feelings' is what we women 'do'?

No one has ever been able to explain this! Wah Wah Wah…

As I already stated upthread it depends on the individual trans person's morphology & if they take hormones.

I don't think TGD is Butters. They diverge markedly on sex by deception. (Unless maybe we changed Butters' mind?)

Ooooh Groundhog Day!

I didn’t spot Patti Harrison either until there was some mention of trans on social media. But I’ve only seen photos and footage which isn’t the same as IRL which sets a much higher standard

TGD's posts are waaayyy too short to be butters!

Hormones will give someone a bust; they don't change the complete physique.

A few years ago, I recall feeling sorry for an older chap who was shopping in a local supermarket. He was wearing a skirt ensemble and a rather obvious grey wig.

Even before you got close to him, the legs made it obvious that he was a man.

And if older trans identifying men pass so well, why do they need stereotypically feminine clothing to add to their presentation? Surely if they passed so well they could wear pants and a cardigan and no one would bat an eyelid. But they’re always in fancy dresses or frocks. Do they not have confidence in their physique, so they have to dress it up for appearances?

Of course, but its all relative to menopause which does change morphology to 'apple-shaped 'instead of 'pear'-shaped with a more pronounced stomach, which is a more traditionally masculine pattern of fat storage.

During menopause, a woman's face may also appear more "masculine" due to a combination of factors including decreased estrogen levels, which lead to skin thinning and sagging, and a relative increase in androgen T levels, which can cause coarse facial hair to grow. These hormonal shifts lead to changes like a more prominent jawline while skin changes like loss of collagen and fat can create a more angular and less full appearance.

Women are generally better at it than men. It's a survival trait

The categorical error you are making here is assuming trans women wear typical women's clothing to 'pass' when in fact its because they share the same inclinations of women IE an organic gravitation to feminine attire.

Im not asking why TW don't pass. You claimed that a TW had the same look as older women. The 'older woman look'. I'm asking why, if older women and TW share 'a look' why isn't being mistaken for a man a regular occurance for older women?

The evidence suggests that there's no difference. And why would there be given reproduction is the point of survival.